July 23rd, 2010
If I Write This Post, The Terrorists Win
And so there you have it. I have been terrorized, and threatened, and coerced into writing a post about something that I have neither the time, nor mental energy to take on. I have been forced to prove a null hypothesis. I have been threatened into proving that I do NOT do something. I have been terrorized into proving myself innocent of a totally ridiculous accusation.
Reportedly, the women who run the “Peaceful Parenting” facebook page started spreading a rumor that I will teach parents to circumcise their sons. Why do they think this? I am told they think this because they once mentioned circumcision to me in a comment on my blog, and I didn’t respond to the comment. You know, because it’s not like I’m not busy or anything. I am told that “Dr. Momma” began telling her readers that I am “Pro-male genital mutilation” and I will teach this to anyone who takes my classes. This was supposedly said in a private “Discussion” on Facebook a few weeks ago – a thread I do not have access to. After receiving some harassing, cruel messages about this rumor, I chose to clarify my position. This caused people from her camp to ramp up the lies, and repost them all over mutual friends’ pages in an effort to slander my character. I have been called names. I have been lied about. I have been accused of allowing this all to happen as a “publicity stunt.” Way to blame the victim, ladies.
Why don’t I want to write this post? Because I do not see the justice in being forced to spend my time disproving lies. It has also become painfully obvious to me that no matter how many times I tell people the truth, they are so committed to the lies at any cost, they will not admit they were wrong. Instead, they will keep changing the accusation until it has all come full circle. No matter what the truth is, they are not interested. They cannot let their readers know that they started lies, and tortured me over nothing.
Here is the truth about my position as a soon-to-be-certified childbirth educator and doula:
I formula fed my first son. I know better now. I will teach women how to breastfeed.
I had an unnecessary, elective labor induction. I know better now. I will teach women about normal birth.
I circumcised. I know better now. I will teach parents about keeping their sons intact.
But sharing this information isn’t good enough for some people. They want me to publicly post my lesson plans and curriculum. Sorry folks, but that is intellectual property, and I will not be terrorized into publishing that on the internet. If you refuse to believe my position, I cannot take responsibility for that. Reasonable people will be satisfied by my statement on the issues. Unreasonable people want me to give them a document promising that I abuse and torture expecting parents until they agree with my views on circumcision. I will not do that. I CANNOT do that, as an educator, if I want to stay certified. I can only give people the information. I cannot make their choice for them, or belittle them for their choice, and attempting to do so would violate codes of conduct. Professional restrictions aside, I am a more compassionate person than that. I am not a shitty person. I help people – not hurt them.
For all the mistakes I made trying to figure out this parenting gig, I am educated now. But to some people, that’s not good enough. To them, the choices I made in the past are all I will ever be. That’s fine with me – those people cannot be reasoned with. Anyone who has ever been in the same room with me when circumcision comes up KNOWS how I feel about this. It is a difficult subject for me because of the choices I’ve made, and it is cruel and unfair to terrorize me into talking about my son’s penises on the internet.
I would like to believe that the intelligent, thoughtful, passionate women who read my writings will be satisfied by this post and end the drama. Unfortunately, given the abuse I’ve already been subjected to in the last 24 hours, I know that by hitting “Publish”, I will have to spend the rest of the afternoon fighting trolls off my page.
Thank you to all the people who have had my back on this.
Now – I have a garage sale to get ready for – who wants to help me moderate comments the rest of the day?
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Wow, I really hope that all we are isn’t a collection of our past choices. If it is, I’m screwed.
Obviously these people don’t actually read your blog.
Chara Watson´s last blog ..To Say What You Mean and Mean What You Say
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Loud women make history. We do it painfully, we do it by becoming the target of the snapping and drooling narrow minded folk who follow along rather than carving their own way.
I’ve been on this chopping block a few times and it’s rough every time- but I assure you, I PROMISE, something new will come along to stir up their salivary glands and they’ll forget all about you. No one lost here- you stood your ground which was the right thing to do. Keep your chin up and just know that by doing so, you’re gonna get hit smack on it again in the future- but at least this time you’ll know who will be there to help you stand back up. *HUGS*
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Jesus, Gina. This sucks. I am obviously not in the same genre of blogging you are, but I think you have just as much a right as any other blogger/parent to keep the private details of your son’s penis’ PRIVATE. And I have to say, of all the groups of “activists” I’ve run across online, the ones harassing you are the most extreme and counter-productive group I’ve seen. There’s a way to get your point across, to educate, and then there’s guilting and belittling and looking down from your soapbox. The latter, in my opinion, does a great deal to discredit the cause you’re fighting for.
Jill @BabyRabies´s last blog ..What Will Baby BBQ Be
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Jesus, Gina….
I guess we’re all screwed, since none of us has the ability to learn and evolve.
How the hell can someone call themselves a “peaceful” parent if they advocate the bullying of parents into subscribing to a particular method of parenting?
I’m sorry, am I being inflammatory?
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Wow no one has anything better to do? They need to get a life. I love you, always will. Even if I don’t agree with something you say I would never be such a bitch about it. If we all agreed on everything and were all exactly the same, this world would be boring and dull and stupid. Much like the women that think it should.
Katie´s last blog ..Justin
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Interesting to see this come up – I had started to notice that almost all of the posts from over there seem to be anti-circ lately. It’s been a bit of overkill IMHO.
My son is intact. BUT ONLY B/C HE’S MY SECOND CHILD. I lucked out and had a girl the first time. If she had been a boy, she would have been circumcised. I put all my energy into learning about birth stuff and never got to research about circumcision. Like you said, when you know better, you do better.
It sucks that you have to deal with all this, but you are dealing with it really well. No one else like you for cutting through the bullshit and getting straight to the point.
Alyssa @ St. Louis Smart Mama´s last blog ..Whats Wrong With My Kids Epidurals- Judgements- and Those Damned Mommy Wars
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I hope that now that people know your stance people will let this go. There is no good reason to harass people in this way and I’m sorry that you’ve had to go through it.
As well, I don’t think it was necessary to publish whether or not your boys were circumcised. It’s no one’s business and I find it incredibly presumptuous for these complete strangers to be asking you about your children’s genitalia and for them to believe that they have the right to know.
As a mother I know that my views are CONSTANTLY shifting and that I’m constantly learning new things. Where my ideas have changed over time, I know that I’ve done the best that I can with the information I’ve had.
Erin W. / Beatnik Momma´s last blog ..A Dream Interpreted
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I agree with every word! I don’t think it was anybody’s business to know about the boys either.
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I really do hope that the unjust ramblings of these overzealous & judgmental few don’t hurt your business.
I think what you’re doing is fantastic. Creating a place in your community where expected parents can go for a fact based non judgmental education is of vital importance to the advocacy that you do!
Good luck!
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Woah! I knew something was up, but I had no idea all that. WTF, people?
I went ahead and cut ties with that group. I can’t be a part of something like that. I also can’t trust anything shared by a group I know has members who behave in such a fashion.
Why in the world do people pull crap like this? I’m so sorry.
Reiza´s last blog ..Are Libraries Cooler Than Cupcakes
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I’s still just astonished by the complete disconnect from logic. Seriously, it seems like the reasoning went from “She didn’t personally reply to my comment on a blog post (that happened to be ABOUT how insanely busy she is). Someone told me that her first two children were circumcised. THEREFORE SHE IS PRO-MGM AND PLANS TO TEACH IT IN HER CLASSES! GET THE TAR AND FEATHERS!”
The truth is that you, and mothers like you, are some of the greatest teachers and intactivist allies you could possibly want. But instead, some people chose to get invested in the dramalicious bullshit narrative about you plotting to promote circumcision.
Way to win hearts and minds, intactivists.
And for the record, I am also opposed to circumcision. What credentials do I need to submit in order to be credited as such?
Dou-la-la´s last blog ..Wordless Wednesday- Breastfeeding Cafe Carnival – Favorite Breastfeeding Photos
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Wow, I used to have respect for Dr. Momma… =/ I hope they come clean and apologize to you!
Vicki´s last undefined ..If you register your site for free at
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I have been in a similar situation and it sucks. I feel for you!
A wise friend then told me that “They only have the power that you give them.” So I stopped responding, “they” started harassing other people later…..
Hang in there!
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I love your honesty – Admitting you would do things differently next time takes guts.
They want you to post your actual curriculum? Um, tell them to suck it and pay for your class.
Janine – Alternative Housewife´s last blog ..Moustash Rides By Appointment Only
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How absolutely dumb and stupid and immature and strange! No more Peaceful Parenting for me. Ridiculousness. Hugs to you Gina. Sorry to hear you had to put up with all this crap.
Kaitlin Rose´s last blog ..Breastfeeding Came Naturally
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You know, I’ve been feeling just about done with “peaceful” parenting for a while now. I find the attitude there to be anything but peaceful. Even when we are ‘on the same side’ I am starting to feel like they are the crazy ass embarrassing people you wish weren’t on your side. Ugh.
Krissy´s last blog ..Oh wait-maybe sexism is alive and well
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my sentiments exactly
Megan´s last blog ..Anastasia 15 mo stats and pics
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I completely agree. There is a ton of wonderful information on that site, but I get the distinct feeling that if you don’t agree with 100% of Dr. Momma’s views, you are wrong. Not exactly peaceful.
Jen @ Two Embrys´s last blog ..Dear Idiot- You Suck
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ditto. I’ve de-friended and have checked out. Was feeling like this for awhile too & this was the last straw. There’s been nothing ‘peaceful’ in what’s gone on over there!
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As I was moving to de-friend these folks, I noticed that they had taken the preemptive and done so to me first because I’m FB friends with Gina and I’m a fan of her webpage. I also got word from a friend of mine that there were rumors flying about me attacking intactivists and deleting their comments as well. (That, I totally do not get, as I am certainly not a popular blogger or famous in any way shape or form.)
Erin W. / Beatnik Momma´s last blog ..Quick Hit- The I Did It and Im Fine Rant
I wish these harassing women had been in the room at the end of the Childbirth Class you attended with me when the topic of circumcision came up. Everyone stayed a half-hour after and talked about their decisions. Two of the couples were divided, but when Gina stated that, even though she’d circ’d her first two boys but would not circ any more male children, I could see the change in their faces. Just a bunch of BS you’re having to filter. Try to reserve your energy for the good things you’re doing, as much as possible.
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Go Gina! I am so glad you wrote about circumcision, but sad that this “incident” was the reason why. People can be so cruel. Hugss to you and good luck on your new business, you’re gonna rock it!
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When Birthing Babes is a smashing success, these people can eat their words!
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I’m truly sorry this happened. I have been a doula for nearly 10 years now. In various ways I have been at times slighted by other doulas for not being “firm” enough in my positions in what I’d guess you’d have to call the “crunchy bona fides,”
such as breastfeeding, natural childbirth and anti-circumcision.
I am also a childbirth educator. No one who takes my class would argue that, even though my first job is to educate, educate, educate in that setting.
My primarily role as a doula is support, support, support so when other doulas/childbirth educators or even those who are not get all up in my space about it, I assume I am being criticized for not bullying my students and for not judging my clients.
I always assume the best about my clients and students. I assume they are choosing best with the information and support available to them within the system (cultural and otherwise) available to them at the time. Many of my students do not choose doula support and then later tell me they regret not bringing me on as their doula. However, as much as I sympathize, I rest easy knowing I respected their choice. I did not take advantage of my position as their teacher to push my services on to them or make them fearful of what might happen if I was not with them.
You should be proud of yourself – your ability to move on from past decisions will be a model to your students and clients with a less than spotless “history,” so they do not have to feel stuck or helpless.
I’d hate for any woman to think she does not deserve our respect and support in her pregnancy and birth because of her choices. That would be tragic.
I will never leave a woman alone in birth no matter what she chooses. I have had clients choose inductions that I knew would fail & end in surgery, but still supported them because they asked for my presence, not my opinion or my judgments.
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This really resonated with me, Karen. I’m finishing up my CCE and just started teaching. I feel the same way in regards to feeling responsible to provide information and educate, but I still have to respect whatever decision my clients make in the end. For example, I have a couple right now who have very much expressed that they feel confident about choosing a low-intervention, drug-free birth. Mom feels confident in her body’s ability, etc. Then at our last class, I found out that she has an OB who “tolerates” the fact that she’d like to pursue this type of birth and also that they are going to the “baby-factory” hospital! Frankly, I’m a bit concerned for them, based on what their goals are. But all I can do is support them, encourage them and provide them with accurate information. Their birth is not MY birth!
Same goes with circ. I am opposed to infant circ. When it comes up during teaching opportunities, I present accurate information, esp on understanding the function of foreskin. Would I be a little sad, internally, to hear that a client then later chose circ even after learning such info? Of course! But I would never, ever belittle or undermine any client b/c of that. Nor would I express that bit of sadness to them. I would choose to love and support them regardless.
I guess as a new blogger to the birthworld, I should probably prepare myself for possible scrutiny at some point down the road, right? For not being firm enough in whatever area…
DelightfulBirth´s last blog ..Heads Up! A Vaginal Breech Birth Story
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Wack-a-doodles! I left their site months ago because of their rude, obnoxious, behavior. They are complete sensationalists. Very hostile environment! You do not have to explain yourself nor your past choices (or current ones) to them!
They haven’t realized that ramming your opinion down peoples throats is not going to gain a receptive listener… In fact people may think you are a nut job and will discredit all of your knowledge.
I enjoy your blog/page immensely – don’t let the unhinged get you down!
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The thing that most baffles me out of all of this, and believe me, there is a lot of baffling bullshit in this situation, is that WE ARE ALL THE PEOPLE WE ARE BECAUSE OF THE MISTAKES WE HAVE MADE IN THE COURSE OF OUR LIVES. I have done things that I’m not proud of, but I am a BETTER PERSON TODAY BECAUSE I REALIZE I HAVE MADE MISTAKES.
What a bunch of dipshits.
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I have never heard of “Peaceful Parenting” but you can be assured I will not support those who terrorize others.
I am an intactivist but I would never, ever stoop to lying, bullying, criticizing, or terrorizing.
You go Gina. I support you 100%. I think you’re going to make a kick-ass childbirth educator.
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Here’s the thing – you’re already an activist for SO MANY THINGS. You’ve helped thousands of women educate themselves about birth. You wrote one of the best posts about breastfeeding on the internet that I (and, what, 75,000 other people?) have ever read. There is no rule that says if you subscribe to some aspects of what I would consider “peaceful parenting” to you have to be a militant, adamant, vocal supporter of every belief one specific group of women subscribe to.
I actual mentioned, in passing, circumcision this week on my blog and was pushed into a somewhat hostile discussion I wasn’t interested in having. It’s something I have ambivalent feelings about after letting my husband make the decision with our first son and I hope I don’t have to make the choice again. You know where I HAVEN’T found any true scientific evidence that might sway me in either direction? On sites that are intentionally sensational, hostile and openly critical of anyone who won’t put the state of their son’s genitalia out on the internet for everyone to see.
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I’m so sorry you are going through this Gina. There is no reason for this to be happening to you or anyone for that matter. As many others have said before me, we make mistakes, we learn and we move on. And yes, we all make mistakes. If we didn’t, we wouldn’t be human and we wouldn’t grow.
As an educator myself, my opinion (or actions) about particular topics has *nothing* to do with what I teach or what I need to teach. I would never push or even share my own opinion with my students. I present the material/the research and teach them how to be critical of that research (whether I agree with it or not). It is completely ignorant to presume that teachers only teach what they believe/do.
I also do not know why they are asking for your curriculum. I was kind of shocked to read that. I agree – there is no reason that you need to be publishing or giving it to anyone in any way shape or form. How completely crass for them to ask you for it.
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Seriously. How old are these people? How are we supposed to support each other as women if we keep knocking each other down for choices current or past? Like you I had to evolve as a parent and person over the years and that meant a bad birth, some formula and a kid that got circ’d because of intense family pressure. If it had not been for the information from other evolved individuals and a willingness to research and learn, who knows? I was so incredibly disappointed to see a status on my FB feed this morning threatening to unfriend me if I was friends with someone else. What kind of Junior High shit is that? I really hope that this is over.
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Gah. Just, gah.
Sorry you have to deal with this. Haters are going to hate, and it sucks. But you have to know that it has NOTHING to do with you. Nothing at all.
Amber´s last blog ..Mama-Hannah-Time
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Wow! I am so sorry that happened to you! People speading useless lies have no business referring to themselves as “peaceful” in any way! Keep up the good work!
Olivia
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I am so sorry to hear that they have been harrassing you. I’m a fb fan and a blog follower of peaceful parenting…but only for a few more minutes. I’ve been uncomfortable with some of their recent posts anyway. It just seems like no matter what I (or anyone else) does, it’s never good enough. Apparently I’m not supposed to work or go out or ever leave my baby’s side, according to them – and that’s just not practical. Anywho, I’m said to hear of this, and I’m sorry you got put in this position.
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And this is what I hate about the blogging world. Sometimes people just get their nickers in a knot over nothing — nothing at all. The truth is that some people crave and seek this kind of confrontation. The sad thing is that most would never say to your face what they’ve “said” all over the internet.
Here’s my advice: Swear words (they always make me feel better). Breathe deeply. Move on.
FamilyNature´s last blog ..Today’s Harvest
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I am thrilled you are speaking up. The intactivist movement is a strange being.
While I don’t disagree with the idea, their methods are so off-putting I WANT to disagree.
They isolate those who could potentially be on their side- like us “feminazis”. I have found their tactics to be similar to the pro-life/ anti-choice movement. The use of hostility, shame, and charged language is such a ineffective use of activism! Compassion, education, support and positive example win every time.
Congrats on your childbirth education center- I know it will be a wonderful resource for women in your community.
Cheers!
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Gina thank you for this post. I don’t think the “terrorists” won you did! You are a great childbirth educator because of what you have been through. The same goes with the subject of circumcision by sharing your experience of it you will really be able to help someone make an informed decision about it. It is because you had a c-section and bottle fed and breast fed and had your boys circumcised that you are an expert on the subject. You can’t really know about something unless you have been through it! There are NO mistakes just choices and as parents we all make some that we wish we hadn’t!!
Kelly Klassen´s last blog ..My Brother
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Gah! Some things never change! Sorry you had to face this.
You know what, I’ve been online a pretty long time, usenet parenting boards made me feel less lonely as a first time mom outside the mainstream. My oldest child is 17 now.
I smile and bite my tongue when young moms rant and get all strident and judgemental about a parenting topic. I remember what it was like. Their passion helps shore them up against criticism from family and friends. I know that they don’t talk to people like that except to blow off some steam in a safe space.
Online it morphs into something entirely different though and cyber bullies are created.
I’m so sorry you were targetted.
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“I smile and bite my tongue when young moms rant and get all strident and judgemental about a parenting topic. I remember what it was like. Their passion helps shore them up against criticism from family and friends.”
I love this b/c I think you hit the nail on the head about how and why moms can get so worked up.
And I’m really glad to be putting that phase behind me myself
Alyssa @ St. Louis Smart Mama´s last blog ..Whats Wrong With My Kids Epidurals- Judgements- and Those Damned Mommy Wars
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I went to bed last night just as the comments on FB started taking an ugly turn after a fellow Jewish mama posted. But then I remembered a mantra that’s helped me keep my sanity, “don’t engage the crazy.” Nothing anybody could say to the people that use that method of “debate” would result in meaningful discourse; it would only lead to further frothiness.
You didn’t need to write this blog post for us or them.
Gah, I can’t say anymore because just thinking about how farking over the top and awful people can get promoting their causes and how all too often it pushes people away rather than gaining them to their side is leading me to run-on sentences and my blood pressure raising. And I’m not even the one getting the abusive messages!
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Got your back, babe.
Greta´s last blog ..My first mention on another blog! Yay!
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Everyone else has already said it. So I’m just going to go ahead and give you a giant virtual HUG and thank you for your honesty. I love your blog. I will be in Chicago tomorrow for a friend’s bridal shower and will be sending good thoughts your way! Have fun at BlogHer!
Megan´s last blog ..Anastasia 15 mo stats and pics
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Gina – Got your back. I missed the drama yesterday. Glad I missed though I would have liked to have supported you.
I’m a pretty crunchy mama, but I don’t feel compelled to terrorize or bully others that don’t agree with my choices. And I’m the first to admit I’m an imperfect crunchy mama at best. Although we try to eat local and organic, I’m not above running to McDonald’s in a pinch. Although I try to skip disposable plastic, I’m not militant about it. Though I use mostly non toxic products, my fave lipstick is definitely not non toxic.
And when I teach my non toxic living classes to new parents, I make it clear that one can only do so much, and you do what you can. That is the way to get people involved and willing to change – by encouraging them to take a small step and by not judging on past actions. Give information and let your students or friends make their own choices.
And my son is circumsized. And I breast fed (son 10 months, daughter 14 months). But I don’t judge others’ choices but I do judge those that seek to limit our choices.
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Wow! I am so sorry they did this to you. I usually like Peaceful Parenting. I somehow missed the drama unfold though. Had I seen it I would have defended you. (Oh wait, I have 4 kids, no wonder I missed the drama!)
I will tell you a not-so secret. I circ’d my 2 boys (I didn’t know better and now I do). I am definetely 100% against circumcision BUT I would NEVER slander anyone because they do not believe what I beleve about MGM. The crazy thing is they are slandering someone that shares their beliefs! INSANE!
There are deinetely some judgemental people on PP. Numerous times I have told them they needed more class when talking about MGM because some of us made horrible mistakes an our guilt is deep enough without their criticism and judgement. Unfortuntely the minority can be the loudest.
Why on earth am I rambling about my experienc Anyway, we al love you and have your back.
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I’ve been saddened over and over by some of the hateful comments I’ve seen a vocal few lactivists/intactivists make on FB and elsewhere. I don’t understand how those few believe that attacking and name-calling will further their (our!) cause.
When will they learn that spouting hateful crap only serves to alienate the very hearts and minds they would like to change?!
Dionna @ Code Name: Mama´s last blog ..Identifying Plants with Young Children
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I’m happy to hear that you are in support of human rights for boys too. I was a bit worried to support your blog due to the fact that I was unclear of your position on this issue, which is so very important to me. While I don’t think it is necessary to disclose your past choices or the state of your son’s genitals, I think it is extremely important that feminist stand up and speak up for men and ALL humans for that matter when rights are clearly being violated. Even just expressing what you have learned about this issue could do a lot to save boys from unnecessary genital reduction surgery. Your blog clearly has many readers and just to spare one innocent baby boy would be worth its weight. I feel that many otherwise great blog owners don’t write about this in fear of losing supporters or causing a backlash. To me this is all a bit sheepish. I’m not saying that you intentionally avoid the topic for this reason, but I am saying that I find a lot of great blogs out there who simply don’t mention circumcision for this very reason. As I mentioned in a FB post, my main concern with “feminist” is they do not understand that there is a need for a men’s movement as well. Men need to be granted the same human rights, especially pertaining to their own sex organs, and as a mother of a son I want my son to know that he doesn’t have to fit any stereo types or traditional male roles. Our boys are being told that they can’t show emotion and must behave in certain ways. For this reason I am in favor of a HUMANIST movement where all people are granted the same freedoms…women, men, children, intersexed. The world would be a much better place if people would stop thinking in terms of female/male, young/old, black/white, etc. We are all human and all deserving of making our own place in this world and being who or what we want to be. An intact body is a basic component of that.
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The feminist discourse I see is very aware that men lose out because of sexism too, and are very aware of the problems patriarchy causes for men as well as women and intersex people. e.g.: http://feministing.com/2010/07/16/michael-kimmel-on-male-entitlement-anger-and-invisible-privilege/
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So you’re saying that Glenn Beck raped and murdered a girl in the 1990s, then, is what you’re saying?
foxy.kate´s last blog ..I can’t control my kids!
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Sure. That’s what I’m saying.
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Look it up! It’s about the burden of proof!
foxy.kate´s last blog ..I can’t control my kids!
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How Awful!
I subscribe to both of those blogs for the occasional interesting post, but maybe I should reevaluate the company I keep! I hope an apology is forthcoming. Hang in there! Signed, Mother of 2 intact boys (13 yrs & 2 mos) and 2 girls all who were EBF for 6 mos and BF for 1-2 yrs each with NIPs on demand.
lol, whew, now does that qualify me to opine?!
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Okay wow, Peaceful Parenting is also the source of that god-awful “Mothers need to be with their babies every second of their first three years of life” article…( http://www.drmomma.org/2010/07/mother-toddler-separation.html ) I find it fascinating (read: sorta sick and dismaying) that a blog so in favor of having male babies treated with the same consideration as female ones is NOT in favor of having male parents given the same respect and belief in their ability to parent as the female parent…
That whole site, which I had not encountered before, makes me feel sort of…icky. (what’s the opposite of “squee”?)
Gina, some people’s recommendations and endorsements you do not need. And please do not feel the terrorists won by your post: speaking the truth without shame is never a defeat.
peace,
Jenn
w
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The opposite = “squicky.”
Interestingly enough, I just noticed they never published my comment on that article. I’m pretty sure it began something like, “wow, I call bullshit on this one…”
foxy.kate´s last blog ..I can’t control my kids!
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(Okay, I kept poking, and there are some pretty decent bloggers on that site saying some pretty good stuff…it’s just that it’s mixed with some OTHER stuff…)
Sigh.
Hang in there.
–Jenn
Jenn the Greenmom´s last blog ..Me and my Kindle
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Gina, I’m so sorry this nonsense has been brought upon you by those with such closed minds/limited grasps of logic. It’s really sad that it degenerated into name calling and false accusations and you feeling forced to defend yourself against something so ridiculous.
Sending you “colours and light”, as my friends say (i.e., good vibes). Keep on bringin’ us the good stuff. And take care of yourself!
Jana
Jana´s last blog ..Chunky grey cowl
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Fuck ‘em.
You can’t please people like that no matter what you do. If they weren’t pissed off that you circumcised your kids, they’d be pissed off that you work outside your home. If they aren’t pissed off about that, you’d be criticized because you don’t cosleep. Seriously, sites like that give the impression that if you aren’t 100% “crunchy” then you are wrong.
Jen @ Two Embrys´s last blog ..Dear Idiot- You Suck
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I like a lot of the articles on that site, but I’m not on FB so I miss a lot of the mommy drama
They kind of lost me when they said that we know Jesus wasn’t really cut because that’s not the way the Europeans painted his little baby penis, though. I mean, really? They also painted him with blue eyes and blonde hair, but we know that wasn’t right…so what does any painter know about the appearance of Jesus’…you know what..
A friend of mine is about to have a baby boy, and although I have sent her some very good anti-circ articles, in the end it’s her decision (actually she left it up to her husband) and it is just not my place to confront her about it and try to change her mind. All we can do is give people the information and let them make their own decisions.
And what does she know about you anyway? Reminds me of the crap that people say about my religion (one of Jehovah’s Witnesses). I mean, really. There is so much misinformation out there and the only way to find out what someone really thinks or believes is to ask them.
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For what it’s worth, I remember MONTHS ago someone asked you about your stance on circumcision and you answered it taking the same exact stance that you are having to reiterate now.
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Yup! Thank you for remembering that!
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wow – crappy all the way around. i follow peaceful parenting, but in the “take it or leave it” sense – like i’ll leave that awful article about not leaving your kid’s side till they’re 3 (WTF?).
kudos to you for confronting it head-on. sorry it seems like they still have shitty things to say about you.
-another mother who (regretfully) circ’ed
Lisa´s last blog ..Out of balance
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just gonna go out on a limb here and say these peacefully parented boys of crazy mean moms aren’t gonna care about their foreskin much when they realize they weren’t raised with any knowledge of how to be a decent human being.
This is what I don’t get when moms are so mean to each other over these issues. What are we teaching our kids? Yes, birth and breastfeeding and foreskins are important. Really important.
But so are relationships (1000x more). And knowing how to handle conflict and opposing opinions while being respectful. And maintaining your convictions without being self-righteous. If you can’t teach your kids that by your example, they’re gonna suck at life anyway.
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I don’t generally follow circ posts because I don’t have sons but I’m pretty surprised by this. That really sucks and for as much as I appreciate a number of Dr Momma’s articles I am extremely disappointed by her behaviour towards you. I hope she apologizes. If I ever had to choose I’d choose you in a heartbeat!
Melodie´s last blog ..Vegetarian Foodie Fridays- My New Kitchen
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Wow, that’s a whole lot of tool-ness you’re dealing with. I seriously just do not/cannot understand why people make up lies like that. What is the point??
And, for what it’s worth, I enjoy learning the most from people who have gone through something and say, “Yeah, I was wrong – what I’ve found out now is that *this* is the right way.” You have a lot to offer your clients and if people have to try and eff that up, karma’s headed their way.
Candice´s last blog ..The Mommy Brain- they dont explain
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Gina, Big hugs to you. I am sorry that they are judging you like this.
As a mom who did circumcise her 3 boys, because I didn’t do the research and was not educated about it, I feel for you.
I just told my DH sitting next to me, “You are aware if we ever have another boy, he will NOT be circumsized.” “Mmm hmm, I know.” was his response. I wish I knew then what I know now. I would have made a different choice.
I will say that I educate moms about this topic and I encourage them to really research and hope they choose not to do a cosmetic surgery on their days old baby.
However, it is their choice and my role is not to judge, but to teach.
Hugs, hugs, hugs.
Sheridan
Sheridan´s last blog ..Contractions Create Healthier Babies
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If nothing else, this post motivated me to do more research on the intactivist issue and convinced me that if I ever have a boy he won’t be circumcised. Before that I couldn’t care less about the issue.
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Gina, I had my son circumcised as well. I was 18, a single mom and had absolutely no idea that there was even a choice or information to support not circing. I remember saying to the nurse who asked me, “I thought you just did that, I didn’t even know you asked the parents!” I know way better now and I know that my son has to live with that for the rest of his life. My favorite quote in the world is by Maya Angelou and it’s something like, “You do what you know how to do and when you know better, you do better.” Thank you for what you are doing, there will be many more parents who at least have the knowledge to “know better” after they take your classes.
I’m sorry that you are being harassed about this and I hope that everything works out.
Betsie´s last blog ..What Im loving today
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Personally, I don’t think you should have had to “prove” your beliefs. (Again, Glenn Beck, look it up.) I’m sorry that this has caused you so much stress; I’ve not seen whatever went down on the PP site? Discussion boards? I don’t know? It’s funny – way back in the day, before your parenting days started (get off my lawn!) hipmama.com had message boards and shit was always going down and blowing up. And somehow I never, ever saw it. It has worked in my favor because I’m not very fond of taking sides. At the same time, PP (which apparently shouldn’t be confused with Peaceful Parenting, Inc., which also has a FB page and seems like a nice, smart group of folks) has not published my comments at any point when I have had something contradictory to say. And quite frankly, not being open to discussion is something that I find disappointing.
The internet needs a moderator.
I think that activists and educators are two wholly separate entities. I think that it is fine for educators to be activists – but on their own time and not in the same time and space as their classroom. Obviously, you have issues that you hold dear to and have very strong views on and that you advocate for strongly. And then there are are others that you may just not focus on quite as much. And that’s *okay.* And as an educator – especially for childbirth, which is one of the most personal and can be one of the most empowering situations for women – it’s not your JOB to be an advocate, and quite frankly I have always found it off-putting to be paying money and sitting in a classroom with a teacher who has their own agenda, you know?
That’s not to say that as an educator you can’t make a compelling case for or against something, and the more thoughtful and compassionate your case, I believe, the more likely you are to find sympathetic ears.
As an advocate for breastfeeding, i can support the Baby Friendly Initiative. I can write in support of legislation. I can keep my eyes open for violations of the WHO code. I can write to local hospitals and encourage them to improve their lactation education and support. I can write to nursing journals and become an IBCLC. I can attend nurse-ins and protests. I can nurse in public and engage in thoughtful information with people who do not understand, or who disagree.
As an educator, I can provide the best information i have in the best way I know how, and then I can support women in their choices.
As a mother, and a friend, I can share my own stories.
As an advocate for normal birth, I can support the Mother Friendly initiative. I can promote the Birth Survey. I can write to local hospitals I know are not VBAC friendly. I can write to hospitals I know that have a high c-s rate and include copies of the maternal health reports from earlier this year. I can share my birth stories. I can support the Big Push for Midwives. I can get involved with ICAN. I can educate myself.
As an educator, I can provide my students with the most current and best information that I have and I can do it in the best way I know how. And then I have to step back, confident that I have facilitated the transfer of information, and I have to allow my students to make the choices that are the best for their family, without passing judgment even if I disagree.
As a mother and a friend and a writer, I can publish or share my own birth stories. I can thank my midwives as well as my OBs for the support that they gave me in my births. I can heap praise upon my OBs and the medical students that attended the twins’ birth so that they know that the way they committed to informed consent and supported me in my desire to have a vaginal birth was appreciated and something they should do for other mothers. Hell, for every mother.
I truly believe that the most uphill battle is against circumcision, largely because it is an issue that is steeped in religion and tradition. There’s no real financial gain such as you have with the formula industry or with fee-for-service medical situations or with “best practice” and actively managed births. And so because people are doing things “the way they’ve always been done” I feel it is the issue that needs to be treated with the lightest, most delicate of kid gloves. Plus, we are talking about PENISES, which hold so much power in our culture but are also involved with ew, gross, sexuality.
And so as an advocate against it, I call it circumcision. If I am writing to legislators or to medical professionals, I explain that I believe it to be MGM. But I believe in dismantling the master’s house with his own tools, etc. I can write letters over and over and over again. I can protest.
As an educator, I can give information. Show videos, even. But I can’t make that decision for the parents, and I think it is crucial not to guilt them.
I think what it comes down to, for me, is that when it comes to advocacy my passion can shine through. When it comes to education, my fucking brilliance can shine through – but more important is my ability to help someone find their own way. And in no case, ever, is it okay for me to act like I have the moral authority over someone else based on a choice that either of us make.
There is a whole OTHER conversation in there about why being a doula almost scares me a little bit.
foxy.kate´s last blog ..I can’t control my kids!
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Word. To all of that. Just Word.
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I was wondering WTF was going on… This is way too ridiculous. I feel bad you had to ACTUALLY defend your viewpoint! Many many vocal advocates/activists for birth/breastfeeding/parenting etc. got to where they are today by some actual mistakes, some raw experiences or tons of research! Any health professional …and that includes educators, doulas etc… Have an ethical responsibility to present evidence based information to parents to make their educated choice!! TFB–You have been saying that FOREVER! Many things that happen to moms, babes families out there come from some uneducated decisions! I have to work with many families who:
ask flat out for inductions,
Some ask flat out for cesarean,
don’t want to try a VBAC,
don’t think about breastfeeding
and most all want a circumcision…
most of them don’t even ask questions…and have never gotten formal information on the subjects!
TFB has been a strong voice to educate!
I hate when cyberworld throws a twisted wrench into the otherwise wonderful sharing network of information.
Get over your-selves people. Stop it. Stop the infectious contagious negativity. Do not engage! Leave TFB alone.
StorkStories´s last blog ..Our new NICU policy–>Breastmilk IS our babies food!
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Haters will be haters. They get especially flared up when someone is doing fantastically fabulous 
Sorry you had to experience this–never fun.
hillary´s last blog ..hillaryboucher- Self-Portraiture RT @hillaryboucher Photo Friday – The Mask http-bitly-aULqFl
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Gina,
You & I have had a thoughtful twitter “conversation” many months ago about circumcision, and your experience with it & feelings about it, and how complicated an issue it is, especially with having circ’d sons & husband. While we didn’t agree completely, you were nothing but completely civil towards me, open with your feelings, honest about your past, and willing to hear out a perspective which differed from your own.
Which makes me all the more sad that people are attacking you.
Because regardless of what you chose for your sons, or what you might choose for a future son, I fully believe you are more than capable of being a compassionate, highly educated, aware, passionate, and mother-baby safety advocating doula.
For anyone to say otherwise hasn’t had experience with that part of you. Which is unfortunate.
It’s so easy to jump on someone who is passionate or outspoken. Not so easy really listen & treat with understanding.
Good luck with the birth educator/doula path you’ve chosen – I think its perfect for you!
kelly @kellynaturally´s last blog ..Going Vegan
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Meant to add also that sometimes experiencing or living through issues or experiences that were difficult or challenging and changing our minds about them, learning about them, becoming educated about them, makes us all the better teachers.
I had two c-sections and epidurals, yet I advocate strongly for natural, woman & child-centered birth.
It doesn’t make me less able to talk about these things or be passionate about them – I think actually it makes those things more important – maybe because when you grow through something, you have that experience to make it better…?
Like, someone who’s always had easy, quick, completely natural births, may find it easy to advocate for the like. But more challenging to empathize with women who have made different choices or had different experiences. Having lived through a difficult c-sec birth & a vbac, you are in a perfect position to see from a more wide birthing perspective…
Okay, I’m rambling. Peace.
kelly @kellynaturally´s last blog ..Going Vegan
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Thank you for all of that. Thanks for remembering the conversation, and thank you for being understanding of my journey.
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Sorry about all the drama. I don’t think your sons’ penises are any of their business.
We would have been in the same boat if my little guy hadn’t been sick. When I was expecting a boy, we were planning on getting it done, after DH found something on the internet about penile cancer. Then our son was born with a heart disease requiring immediate surgery. No one mentioned circ-ing and I didn’t ask, just assuming that being in the hospital for heart surgery was not the appropriate time for snipping a penis (though I have learned since that a lot of little boys do get it done while recovering from their heart surgeries 
)
At our first pediatrician appointment, I brought up that we still needed to get the circ done and he told me that he would not allow it until DS was at least one yr old and had been healthy for several months and that he hoped he could use that time to convince me not to do it. It worked out well that we were stalled enough for me to get educated more on the topic and realize it wasn’t for us, although I would much rather he have an intact heart than an intact penis. I’m not going to go around pretending that my son’s anatomy makes me an enlightened “intactivist”
I guess my point is just that its hard to have fully informed opinions on parenting topics without actually being a parent, especially those of us with unplanned pregnancies.
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I am tempted to say that all the rabid anti-circumcision people are anti-Semitic as well, since it is a part of traditional Jewish law. If they didn’t let a little thing like facts, discretion, and decency stop them, why should it stop me? Oh yeah. I don’t want to be a jackass.
But part of me would love it if they “had” to post about how they were not anti-Semitic.
Wonder if they would like it?
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I’m sorry but wtf kind or response is this? Really? I was raised Jewish and after circ’ing my first son not knowing better and dealing with his meatal stenosis and severe pain for years, I am by far an intactivist. Nobody should ever remove part of somebody else’s body without their consent. Period. Are you calling me a freaking Nazi because I believe this? Or anti-semitic? You have no idea what you are talking about.
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Hey Gina,
I’m sorry to hear that you have been attacked. It never feels good to feel like you have to *defend* yourself. I respect your rights as an educator, and I think that being an activist is great.
I made the mistake of circ’ing my 1st son, and know how it feels. I am now educated too, and would not make that decision again. However, I do agree that there is a point as parents where we have to realize that we make decisions for our own kids, and others make decisions for their kids. We cannot always agree with their decisions or like them, but we have to respect their rights as parents. And it sucks when activism becomes “terrorism” – there is nothing peaceful about judging others decisions. Each one of us can only take responsibility for the decisions we make. And we can only do so much with the information and support that we have.
I think that you have done just that, and then gone above and beyond what most parents do. You educated yourself and gained passion about important parenting issues. And it’s great that you have chosen to share those with others. I support you 100% – even on days when I don’t necessarily agree.
I love your passion and your sense of fairness. But I also love how bold you are and unapologetic about how you feel. You OWN what you believe in! And I think you rock!
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I had been reading your tweets and wondering what was going on. All I can say is – it all sucks. Can’t believe there are people in this world that make up and spread lies like that – really it is just cruel.
Sounds like you are handling it well. Stay strong, keep up the great work you are doing and know that we support you.
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(((GINA)))
Anyone who knows and/ or follows you knows where you stand on issues and it’s just sad that you have had to come out and defend yourself against these comments. I am sure I am not the first, nor will I be the last, to say: If I have to choose between Team Gina and Team PP… I’m on Team Gina. But seriously, ladies, let’s grow up, shall we?
Happy Garage Sale to you and Best of Luck in the Grand Opening!
Karianna´s last blog ..Who gets to decide if it is a choice
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So sorry you have to deal with this. I hope this all stops immediately. But no matter what they say, people who love and care for you and read your bog know that this is not true. You are going to have so many people who are going to be interested in your classes, don’t worry.
Don’t those people have better things to do? They are so sad… I feel bad for them. Wasting their time meddling into other people’s business just shows that they are the people with problems. It must be great to be so perfect and all-knowing …
Do you know McKMama? She has/had to deal with awful stuff like this as well. Both of you have become very successful and people are just jealous.
And then there is the flood…. Can I help in any way?
Love,
Dagmar
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Thank you Dagmar. Your support is enough for me. I hope I get to see you at BlogHer!
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First of Gina, you are awesome and if people want to play out drama like this on the internet to attempt to ride the coattails of your success, unfortunately, there is nothing that can be done. That is their own problem and for people to do something like that it shows the lack of integrity in their blogging.
Second, Both of my sons are circumcised (not to self, now I am going to lose a ton of followers but I dont care) it is a choice my husband and I made together, and were influenced by mainstream society before *I* knew better. Does that mean when I start teaching childbirth education classes I am going to teach parents to do what I did? Nope, I am going to provide them with educational information on both sides and let THEM make the OWN choice. Like any GOOD educator would.
I wrote a post a few weeks ago about the extremists, mostly in the childbirth community, but it certainly could pertain to this issue also.
Third, you are totally taking the high road. These “women” if you want to call them that, are acting like the mean girls in high school. Plain and simple.
They are no better than “the man” that they rage on against by trying to back you into a corner. Of course they will never see that though.
You cannot make extremists listen to reason. It simply will never happen.
I love you, and I love your blog, and you are going to be a rockin’ childbirth educator, and doula. Keep up the good work!
Danielle´s last blog ..My Kids PermaBirthControl…
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Hugs! I saw some stuff on FB and thought It was crazy anyone would be spreading such obvious lies about you! I have 2 girls so circumcision wasn’t something I gave much thought to until recently. If I’d had a boy instead of girls I would have circumcised. I also had an epidural at w/my first & though going natural was crazy talk! That doesnt mean I can’t change my mind as I become more educated about something! I had a perfect, beautiful natural birth & am now a doula & huge supporter of natural birth. That doesn’t mean I force my opinions on my clients. I give them information and let them decide! I wish that a lot of intactivists out there could see that their methods do the opposite of what they want & put people off. There was recently discussion on circumcision on my FB page. I was thankful it stayed relatively calm bc I know some ladies who are over the top & in your face & sometimes cruel when it comes to circumcision. Anyhow…I’m sorry you are going thru this annoying situation. Whether or not your boys are circ’d is nobody’s business! They are just jealous you are so awesome! Oh & I’m so sorry you are dealing with flooding! Extra hugs!
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They get a little crazy over there about the Circ stuff. I mean, I read their stuff mostly for the Anti-CIO and breastfeeding stuff, but they can be a little extreme.
I too formula fed my first, working on 15 months breastfeeding my second. I circ’d both my boys. I had an induced labor with my first as well (due to pre eclampsia though) but my second, despite gestational diabetes was allowed to go nearly a week overdue thanks to an awesome doctor, and I eneded up going naturally.
I like your blog because you describe yourself as a feminist, and I’ve had more than one arguments with others in the various attachment parenting communities and breastfeeding communities that you can’t be AP or a lactivist and a feminist at the same time “because feminists are against breastfeeding”. It is nice to see someone who thinks a little more like I do.
Kudos to you for not publishing your stuff online for your classes, you definately should not, because once it is out there, it is no longer in your control. Keep it up!
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I know it’s a little trite to use the old adage about drawing bees with honey instead of vinegar, but people react to positive messages better than they do to negative ones (we learned this years ago in Psych 101). If you tell someone they are XYZ for even CONSIDERING an option – they will immediately be turned off to your message. By spouting off about genital mutilation – you miss the opportunity to tell them the reasons why you don’t think circumcision is the best option. I’ve had some AMAZING discussions with pro-intact ladies about the where the law should stand on the issue, and what should be recommended by government organizations like the AAP and CDC. By sharing opinions, we both learn more about the process, the ramifications to the individual, and to society.
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I have never been anywhere near this site, for which I am thankful. Obviously, they are threatened by you and deeply believe they have the right to judge other parents. It must be nice to be perfect.
Jerseygirl89´s last blog ..Schadenfreude
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I guess you had to make a record of this, but I’m sorry you had to. Rise above it, baby.
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I am so sorry that you had to write this in the first place.
I think that your choices are your choices. I went into parenting being one of those “traditional” parents who formula fed, got the epidural, etc (though I did end up refusing the epidural for both labors). I’m glad that I’m older and wiser now, and I feel that parenting is a journey, not a destination (cliche, but true!). Last time I checked, people are not perfect. We make imperfect decisions, and if we are smart, we learn from our mistakes.
I’m sorry that people threatened you – that is not cool. I’m very surprised to hear the names floating around, however, as I’m subscribed to all of those mentioned on Facebook. Based on what I’ve read from them over the past 48 hours, I cannot see myself “liking” them anymore. It makes me sad, really – instead of really attempting to educate people and then leaving people to make their own decisions, they seem to want to force information down people’s throats.
Tiffany´s last blog ..
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I hope that all intactivists are not being lumped into a category of people who personally attack or threaten others. I am very opposed to circumcision and feel it oversteps the bounds of parental decision-making (on a moral/ethical level, not a legal level), but I would never attack someone who felt differently or who had their child(ren) circumcised and then later reconsidered it. I will say that I can’t picture Dr. Momma herself attacking someone, but I wasn’t there to “see” what happened.
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Gina, I’m a lurker, but had to post to this. This is insane. Teaching is not about thrusting your opinions on others (as you know) Its about presenting the facts in an unbiased light and allowing one to make their own, educated decision. I’m sure you’ll be a great teacher As for the completely insane people harrassing you, they must realize that they will win no one to their cause with harrassment. They will only terrorize people and scare them away. It’s not beneficial to anyone. Prayers with you for flood cleanup. My own personal mantra- I lead my life, not to live up to your expectations, but to exceed my own.
Blessings, Kristin
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It never fails to amaze me when I see stuff like this in communities that you would think would be extra supportive. I don’t know anything about these other people so I won’t comment on the issue at hand but I certainly can believe what you are saying because I see it all the time in local moms groups, on blogs, on forums, serious. Don’t people have something better to do with their time than create drama and hound others to assert their dominance? These are important issues…I’m not saying they aren’t…but none of these attacks are every *really* about the issue. The issues just become an excuse for little dictators to mark their territory.
Candace @ NaturallyEducational and @Mamanista´s last blog ..Education Blogs Custom Search Engine
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Where can I get more info on circumcision. I am due in 2 weeks, planning a CPM-attended home birth, don’t know the sex. We are still deciding, but want more information on why not to do it. Because right now, the only reason would be because God told the Israelites back in the day….
Thanks! Love your blog!
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Many Jews and Christians are foregoing circumcision nowadays. Circ rates are dropping dramatically, thankfully.
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