This Is No Way to Convert Me to Christianity

Jun 16th 2010

Late Friday night, as I was aiding and comforting a woman (for free by the way) while she brought a baby into the world, I received a Facebook message from a “cyberfriend” of two or three years. The message started off like this:

Hi Gina, First I want to start off by saying that I really admire the passion you have for the causes you believe in. I’m sure we will never know the tally of just how many women you have helped through your blog, your radio show, and the numerous other things you do.

Awww – that’s a nice thing to say, especially when I’m at my first birth, finally physically helping a woman in person. If I’m being honest, at the risk of sounding a bit egocentric, I actually get about 3-5 emails per week from strangers saying awfully nice things to me just like this.  This one started out sounding very similar to all the other messages I get, so I decided to skim it quickly while I was walking down the hall to the waiting room on my way for some extra ice.

I was on my iPhone, briefly scrolling through when I noticed that paragraph after paragraph of this message contained the words “GUILTY” and “murderer” and “rapist” – all encompassed in what looks like scripture.  Confusion is pouring into my brain. I may be an atheist – but I know what bible verses look like.  I was raised and baptized as a Southern Baptist, and those people don’t mess around.

I get to the end, and find this shocking paragraph waiting for me:

If you’ve decided to reject the gift of forgiveness and you die in your sins, there is no hope for you. There is no purgatory. The wrath of God abides on you and you will spend eternity in Hell.

So here’s where I think “Oh, I get it.  Her account must have been hacked.  This is one of those crazy spam messages.  I better close out of here before I get a virus.”

*pause*

*thinking*

*scrolling back to the top*

Okay wait.  This can’t be a spam message because she addressed me directly in the beginning of this email.  Oh my god.  She’s serious.

Okay, so I’m standing there trying to understand how this person (who I didn’t even know was religious) has just sent me an email out of nowhere calling me a sinner, a liar, a jezebel, etc – and then tops the whole thing off with telling me that I’m going to burn in hell for eternity.

Now… call me crazy, but if I were trying to convert someone to my thinking, this is not exactly the way  I’d go about it.  Can you imagine if I told someone “You should really consider breastfeeding because if you don’t you will BURN IN HELL!!!” (<—-notice my tongue planted firmly in my cheek there.)

I know that I’m a good person. Besides the fact that I have people sending me 3-5 email reminders each week telling me what a good person I am, I am a constant do-gooder.  Always have been.  Even when I was drinking and staying out all hours of the night having premarital sex with total strangers, I was still a good person.  I don’t steal, I don’t cheat, and there are only two situations that I will consider telling a lie:  1.) to protect someone’s feelings, and 2.) to protect my privacy.

Being an atheist doesn’t mean I’m a devil worshiper.  It means I worship nothing at all.  I don’t need a man in the sky to threaten me with eternal damnation to keep me from doing bad things.  I can do good all by myself, thankyouverymuch. I am a good person because I have a strong moral compass.  I’m generous to a fault because I like to make others happy.  I don’t cheat or steal because I believe the universe has an energy that, when disrupted, carries negativity back to that person.  Some call that Karma.  I sometimes think of it as Poe’s Tell-Tale Heart.  Call it what you will, but that’s about as spiritual as I get.

And to me, if there were a God, he wouldn’t be sending Good People like me to burn in hell for all of eternity just because I don’t believe in him.  That sounds like an awfully spiteful, vengeful God to me.

Thomas Jefferson said:

Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.

I wonder if Thomas Jefferson is rotting in hell right now?

I think if there is a God (and seriously, you’ll never get me to believe there is) then when I die, he’ll throw open the pearly gates for me and say “Good job down there, Gina… I couldn’t be more proud of you.”

And I wonder what that God will think of people running around down here telling other kind people that they’re going to rot in hell?  A Loving God certainly wouldn’t approve of intolerance and spite.

I’ve discovered recently that I have a whole lot of conservative Christians reading my blog, which is cool.  I dig that. Other than the Jesus stuff, we probably have a lot in common. (and sorry about all the cussing, that’s another thing nobody can stop me from doing.)

But I’m going to be honest with you, it’s stuff like this that makes me really scared of Religious Types.  Seriously.  I’m more terrified of a group of religious fanatics than I am a dark alley filled with gang-bangers in my old drug-infested neighborhood.  At least the gang-bangers don’t creep into my inbox telling me I’m going to burn in hell forever.

Pardon my language, but that shit is NOT COOL.  And by the way?  It’s not going to work, either.

___________________________________________________

Whaddayou make of the message from this friend?  Are you religious?  Is this how you try to convert people?  Has anyone every converted you using this kind of language?  I’m dying to hear…

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I am a Christian despite encountering many Christians like your friend who have damned me to hell for dancing, listening to secular music or drinking wine or whatever crazy notion they have about what makes a Christian. In a perfect world I would hope to be a Christan because of people and not despite them. But alas, we are all flawed and unperfect. I try to love everyone with their flaws and imperfections. The two first commandments are about LOVE. Love God, love your neighbor and as a Christian that's how I try to live and interact with the world. Please forgive your friend. Most likely she has been lied to along the way of what it's all about.

That's... terrible. I'm rather deepily religious but ont he other side (I'm a Helenistic pagan). Why would they even....guh...the stupid hurts my brain!

Well. All that turned out nicely.

Just a few things though, @Rebecca, I so agree, so many branches of Christianity say you must believe in Jesus, yet each has their own way that is more specifically right that other ones. What? Which is it? Loves us all or not??? I can see why other Christians get offended by statements like that. It's like no one is good enough. Only one way works and only this (fairly new, whichever it is) version has it right. Please.

Also I have to say, for any religious person who tries to quote scripture; Isn't it pretty much useless to quote something that the other person doesn't believe in!?? Like I don't get it. The speaker feels so convinced about something that to the receiving party has no significance. It's like blowing hot air on someone and wondering why they aren't moved by it. I don't understand why people who believe can't understand why people who don't believe don't get moved by why they aren't moved by! The point is, if scripture from an alien source can suddenly be so eye opening, then why don't evangelicals 'see the light' in the Qua'ran for example? The same reason others don't see it in the Bible.

That said, I love non proselytizing religions! <3

@Karen, I'm sorry you had to go through things like that. :(

I found your blog by way of a friend and can say I both enjoy and am entertained by it.

So..it's been awhile since I've been here...to this blog post...makes my stomach turn. I didn't realize there would be so many new comments. Just so people know (and can hopefully stop being pissed off...although I totally see why people are now and they have every right to be) I sent Gina an apology on October 29th last year. Below is part of the email I sent her. She responded. I hope people can understand that I am truly sorry and would take everything back if I could. I don't have that power though so this is the best I can do. Since this message and since my apology email my beliefs have entirely changed...I am no longer a Christian. Ironic twist I suppose. I'm not posting this for any other reason than the hope that people see that I totally get I messed up, and it's time to move on. The train has left the station.

Lots of love,
Nicky

Gina,

I hesitated to even write you since I know you don't need anything else on your plate right now and I am NOT trying to stress you out. I really just want to genuinely tell you I'm sorry for the horrible message I sent you all those months ago. I wish I could explain why I even thought for a moment that a message like that was ok, but I cannot, nor should there be an excuse because it was just plain wrong.

I was raised in the horrors of the eternal hellfire, so-called "Christian" church, and a couple weeks ago I came dangerously near to a mental breakdown. At that point I was somehow given enough grace to stand outside myself and see what a hateful, toxic message I was propagating. I don't know what I believe right now, everything I thought I ever knew makes no sense to me anymore. The only thing I do know in my heart is that God loves ALL people, whether we believe in Him or not and when we die we'll get to be with Him again. He's not the hateful monster that "Christianity" is brainwashing into people today...it can't possibly be anything like what it's supposed to be. I really don't know anything right now. Only that, that message makes me want to run screaming, as far as I can.

I am so sorry for the hurt I caused you, especially during such a vulnerable point in your life. The message was hateful, double-minded, and inhumane. I hope that I have not caused you any permanent or lasting pain, and if there is anything I can ever do or say to make things right, I will do whatever is within my scope of being.

You're an atheist!? I should have known. I liked you far too much for you not to be. =)

FB, I think that you are very angry with Nikki. (As my dh would say, "thank you, Captain Obvious!) I can't help but think I still haven't heard a really good reason why you couldn't talk to your "friend" about this personally (or by replying to her email), instead of dragging her thru the mud here. She really believes "this stuff" and that is why it fits into her "reality" to be kind to you by telling you what your future will be if you do not believe in her Jesus.
I have read only some of your blog posts and I just read your vbac story, but from that I can tell that you are a strong woman. You fought for what you wanted and you were Victorious! I applaud you. I don't think that you would be afraid to tell anyone off if you tho't you needed to. That said, you couldn't do that with Nikki. Nikki loved you enough as a friend to risk losing your friendship by telling you what she did. I think that it's obvious that she did lose your friendship. That's what keeps a lot of people from telling there friends what they believe--fear of losing friendships.
Nikki, you were brave. you talked to her and she rejected the message. I'm sure that this has been excruciatingly painful to you and to your former friend, but your going to have to move on and let this one (battle) go. If you keep coming back here and responding to and reading all these negative comments, it will just wear you down and steal your joy. Jesus didn't say that we have to defend ourselves and that is what all this is leading to. A very large portion of the people posting are leveling personal attacks against you and you defending yourself only distracts from your message. The Gospel of Jesus. Trust in Him and and trust that He is in control. He knew that His gospel would offend people and it did and it still does.
To the rest, NOBODY took Jesus life from Him. NOT the jews and not the Romans. NOT anyone. Period. He gave His life as a ransom for anyone who would accept it. You are the captain of your ship. You choose your destiny. If you choose to reject Jesus, you choose your destiny. If you choose to accept Him, you choose your destiny. But there's only "Door #1" and "Door #2" to choose from.
Some people say that all road lead to God and all beliefs are equal. What if I say all roads lead to Walmart and one cloth diaper is just as good as any other? Y'all know that isn't true.
To all the Christians who posted and said that they would never do what Nikki did, (maybe you shouldn't--I'm not going to give my opinion.)what you should do is read your Bible. Read the WHOLE New Testament especially the words in red! If I didn't believe what Jesus himself said, I wouldn't call myself a christian. Do you know what happened to the apostles of Christ? They kept preaching and offending people until they were all martyred, except John who was was exiled to Patmos where he wrote the book of Revelation. If you are a christian, and you do what Jesus said to do, you will offend people and you will lose friends. Not because you are a jerk and you but because the message is so offensive. Why would Jesus bother to DIE for you if there was nothing to be saved from??? What kind of "good" god would allow his son to be killed just for the anyhow--for no good reason.

Commenting Etiquette
This is MY house, and I've invited you over for a dinner party. I encourage thoughtful interaction and respectful debate. I love alternative opinions and spirited discussions. However, if you don't like what I'm serving here, you are welcome to politely disagree, or simply leave the party. Conduct yourself in my space as you would in my home. If you become abusive, hostile, or otherwise embarrass yourself, then you will be shown to the door. If you refuse to leave, I will lock the door behind you. This is a personal blog, which means I am under no obligation to allow all comments on this page. If you don't like that, get your own blog.

I can find the door, thanks.

@ Nicky..."The Bible is the source of Truth". I'm quoting what you said.

Maybe it is the source of truth for you, but that doesn't apply to everyone. You need to accept the fact that everyone believes differently. We all have our own paths to follow in life. I'm a non-believer who was once a Christian. I agree with most of the other ladies here. Brittney's comment was brilliant.

Look, Nicky...I'm sure your intentions were good. But the problem is that you seem to believe it is your responsibility to "save" the souls of the people you care about. It is not your responsibility to do that. The only responsibility you have in this life is to be kind and treat others the way you want to be treated. Period.

My mother-in-law is a lovely person, but her attempts at conversion annoy me to no end. Why? Because I respect her faith but she doesn't seem to respect the fact that I do not believe in her beloved Jesus. She sends me the Daily Bread and all this stuff winds up in the trash. She is obviously trying to send me a message but I've made it clear that I'm not interested.

My soul is my business. I am not a child who needs to be saved from herself. I decided a long time ago that Christianity served no real purpose in my life. Does this mean I'm against Christians? Nope! It simply means that I follow a different spiritual path. That doesn't make me or Gina or anyone else a bad person. And it doesn't give you the right to tell other people how they should live their lives.

I believe you're a good person. I think it's wonderful that you care about your family and friends. But when you send emails like that, you need to expect that some people will be offended. Not everyone is interested in being "witnessed" to. Not everyone believes in God, Jesus, heaven, or hell.

You can be a Christian without shoving your beliefs down everyone's throat. You can be a Christian without feeling the need to "save" everyone you come across. As I said before...that isn't your job.

Unlike some atheists, I don't have contempt toward Christians...but it bothers me when I encounter Christians who don't respect that MY beliefs are different from theirs. Let's be respectful of one another, shall we? ;)

I echo a lot of the other comments when I say, "How dare she?!" I know this was posted a while back, but I just found it. I am a Christian. I am not particularly conservative. I have conflicting views on "damnation" (so to speak), but people like this woman make my stomach hurt. You are absolutely right...on what PLANET does she think this would EVER get someone to believe in ANYTHING she was peddling?! I am sorry that you feel so negatively toward Christianity as a path for you personally, but that is your personal choice and freedom to feel that way. How dare this woman lure you in with compliments and then lower the boom! People like her are why a lot of people feel the way you do. I'm reading a book right now called, "When Christians Get It Wrong" by Adam Hamilton. He addresses pretty much exactly what she did to you. It covers a lot of topics on which loud-mouth Christians often drive away people who are either questioning or otherwise non-Christian.

Anyway, bottom line, she was wrong. There was no call for that, and she makes other Christians' witness harder and gives them reputations they don't earn. Boo on her.

Well I have a few comments. I cannot imagine that message, its so misguided. I am totally into God and Jesus!
Comments
1-If God wanted to condemn people he would not have EVER made a way where anyone oculd be forgiven for anything jsut by asking, and He would not have sent Jesus Christ to heal all that came to HIM and to teach the spirit of the law, which is to love you neighbor as yourself and to love God:)

2-Everyone that commented that people like her are the reason you are an atheist, I would never give ANY PERSON that much power over me, especially one so misguided.

3- OF COURSE YOU ARE A GOOD PERSON, God made you that way and with your own free will! Congrats for using it to do good in the world! The world is full of good people, who all have at least one issue int heir life that they cannot overcome. We are not perfect, and God is okay with that. He loves us and want to heal the hurts others inflict on us and be in realtionship with us. Google the Fathers Love letter...its all so true and beaustiful video too.

4- My Story..you wanted to know what I tell people to evanglize, my testimony, and the truth that God loves them and is not counting their sins.

I was a marginal Christian. I beleived in God for some reason all my life. I saw God in all creation and as an artist, there was this reverential awe for the creator of the universe. As a chemical engineer there was an equal awe for the complexity of the makeup of everything around us, chemical reactions...definitely an ordered universe not random. I was not a bible scholar, read some, and I hated church becasue of church people:)

Then one night, after quitting fertility treatments a month before and being completely disheartened by my sudden heart issues (pun intended), I was awakened by a voice telling me I was pregnant, demand a blood test. I thought I was dreaming, pulled the covers over my head and I was yelled at Jennifer!!! I sat up and said okay, okay. I had a nuclear stress test scheduled at 8 am...there was no way I was pregnant. Had the negative blood test three weeks ago. Well long story short, I demanded a bloodtest, and after being thoroughly harrassed at the hospital to go through with this nuclear stress test without one they got an ER doc to write the order for a bloodtest. They did one, and then another...the first was inconclusive. The second was positive. I called up the fertility clinic and got in the next day for an internal ultrasound. I was ten days pregnant. I had managed to ovualte on my own on day 9-10!! I was officially freaked out. I never ovulated on my own...hence the treatments.

I knew on some level it was God/angel from the second yell and had been in shock all morning, and in some disbelief like this does not compute but it was? Well I still had issues becasue my health failed with a baby, it was a mess, it was complicated. I cried out to God why did you give me a baby and let me be too sick to care for her!!! I was UPSET. Somebody came to my door wiht a book and then a couple months later I went and took this class on divine health and left there well (beinhealth.com-no affiliation). My daughter was one...my atheist husband converted after I came home and ME, the woman who could not climb the stairs to our home cleaned up the whole house and had a party for 40 ppl a couple weeks later. I cannot tell you I have all the answers but I can tell you God still is active in peoples lives.

The class taught on spiritual issues and blocks to healing. I learned some promises God made me in the Bible, saw some areas where I did not trust God, prayed about it and got well just sitting in my seat. No TV type drama. I just stood up for the first time in a long time and everything did not go black:)

I had fear in relationships...did nto trust God nor man, and by not choosing to believe how much God loved me, and choosing to trust Him I would never be healed. So I laid down my bitterness over some past abuse in prayer and obedience, and after God healed my broken heart and I could trust...where before it did not compute. That is the beauty for ashes stuff you hear about, but hte part you never hear is that you have to go first and use your free will to lay down the ashes. I had to learn how to give things to God...I had no clue how this stuff worked, LOL!

AS SURE AS THERE ARE PHYSICS GUIDING THE PHYSICAL WORLD, THERE ARE SPIRITUAL PHYSICS GUIDING THE SPIRTUAL WORLD. Pagans call it KARMA. The bible calls it the law of sowing and reaping:) THe kicker is you have to read the bible and see what the rules are becasue they are counter intuitive often. Forgive some bastard that did what to me?? Yep, because first its killing your soul, and secondly by doing it as an act of obedience to Gods word, you are choosing God with your free will and inviting Him into this situation...and He will come and heal your hurts, body soul and spirit. Who knew? Notice the bastard was never mentioned...it was never about him. Our relationship wiht God is vertical and does not include other people.

Official Jesus freak here, mom to two after 15 years of marriage and infertility!

I'm athiest but have no problems with any religions as long as you don't try to force yours on me then we're cool - even then it's the person & not the religion that shits me.

There is an awesome quote in the Australian mini-series "Brides of Christ" that says, about hell: "even if you have to stand on your head in a bucket of shit, you'll have more fun than the suckers in heaven!" It's always made me giggle.

I was wondering if you were a non-believer or a jesus follower or what not, so I started looking at your blogs to see what I could find out. I found this and learned that you are Atheist as well as I! :D

I would like to recommend a Blogger that is a lady atheist so if you're interested I can give you her website.

FUCK that lady who cursed you. She obviously seems lonely, jealous, and "blind." She's the "lost" one.

I don't recommend ANY kind of beliefs or non-beliefs to you FB. You're an adult right? You're a mother right? You already know what you like, believe in, are disgusted with, and what you have passion for... so no need for me or ANYone to "recommend" or "just listen" to any kind of religion, Jesus person, faith, non-beliefs to TFB.

Hello! I'm totally late to this party, but after reading the post and skimming/reading all the comments, I have something to say to Nicky. I hope this reaches her.

Nicky, you might want to read Acts 17:22-31, which is Paul's speech at the Areopagus. As you may recall, it's a beautiful and moving speech, and one addressed to those who did not believe in Yahweh or Jesus. You asked what about your approach is not Biblical. Perhaps the question should be, what is the most kind and well-received approach that is also Biblical? I believe you'll find that approach in Paul's speech.

You can e-mail me if you want to talk. phile_1013 [at] hotmail [dot] com

I just started reading your blog and I love it! I saw the title to this entry and decided to read it. I am a Christian and my husband is a pastor and we are both completely appalled by that kind of thing! You are right, that is no way to convert someone to Christianity! We actually call those people "bumper sticker christians." They are typically the most hypocritical and wrong people there are! Don't listen to crazy people like that! I also agree that I am frightened of the crazy religious people! They are nuts! We aren't all like that! I hope you have a healthy pregnancy and a wonderful home birth experience!

I do not read keep up with your blog (someone sent this to me). I am also a Christian, but I couldn't agree more. I don't think the loving and merciful God I was raised to know would punish anyone for not believing. Being a good, kind and decent person is the essence of Christianity (or it is suppose to be!) This is frankly embarrassing!

I saw a discussion on a forum where the opening message went something like this:

"My mother is a true believer in Jesus Christ. Three years ago, she got a vision. Now she has been working for the poor children in Africa together with a few of her friends. They've built a school, raised money for a bicycle and a computer, etc.

I like religious people. I mean what do atheists do in their free time?"

I just *had* to answer:

"I don't need visions or commandments to do good. I love helping people. For years now, a part of my income has gone to UNICEF, every month. Next year, I intend to spend three months in India helping abandonded babies. As I'm not retired yet, this is all I can do for now."

I don't understand the whole idea of needing an outside source telling us how to be good or to motivate us being good. I'm not afraid I'll burn in hell if I do something bad yet I still don't want to hurt others because I'm not a selfish person. Humans are social creatures, we function best when interdependent of one another and we have the tools for that inside us.

My Dad has the best response for these kinds of Christians..."If heaven is full of judgemental people like you, I don't want to go there anyway."

Shuts most of them up :)

Oh, FFS! I don't know how anyone can think that this kind of behavior would lead to conversion. "HI, I'm a douche! Would you like to be a douche with me?!"

I can't stand the way that organized religion leads some people to believe that they have the only right answer in their lives. MOREOVER, I can't stand the way organized religion takes away any confidence one has in his or her self to accomplish anything. I have dear, dear friends who constantly post comments saying "I ran 1k miles today because JESUS is Lord and He did it!" I just want to call bullshit and tell them that NO, Jesus didn't run 1k miles, YOU just did.

OK, now I'm rambling.

Thanks for showing me I'm not the only one getting douchey messages from well-meaning believers.

"These concepts were not created by God, God is beyond them, these are concepts created by man."

Well actually, the very notion that there is a God that could possibly be "beyond" us and our concepts was created by humans. Sorry, but what you say continues to just be your theory. And a highly baseless one at that.

I would encourage people to live life to the fullest and grasp what they see in front of them as love and reality and stop reaching for something that isn't there. But then I'd be just like one of them - telling people what they *should* do and believe.

So I won't.

I don't like the term "religious" at all. In fact, I kind of hate it. I am not "religious" I have deemed to accept the articles of a faith-based doctrine, some like to use the term "religion" but isn't everything we do in life based on faith? Isn't the freedom we feel to jump up based on the faith that gravity will pull us back down? And many of the things we take on as fact aren't real, they're simply constructs of the human mind. Things like time and space are only 'real' in the sense that they're concepts we've established to express our perception of things that are way beyond genuine perception. These concepts were not created by God, God is beyond them, these are concepts created by man. Just like religion. Religion is simply a rudimentary construct to house our expression of God. Religion does not define God, our experiences with Him does. So to say you don't believe in something simply because you cannot fully perceive it is silly because we do it all the time. I would encourage you to give it a shot. Let go of all your preconceived notions other "religious" people have given you and try being open to the concept and see how that shapes your perception of God.

It-The Dispute
She has become a martyr. Unwilling to see thought eyes but her own. Causing pain to herself and others. This is the type of person we should not talk about or to, as she is like a being who holds tighter to something the more you try to take it away or make less of it. Religion is and has always been a very sensitive subject and usually ends up hurting people. Other people’s beliefs won’t go away. And we can’t make them, nor is it always our responsibly. We are here to help each other, and so far only the reverse has happened.
Ladies, I don’t know about any other person’s beliefs, but I think this whole ‘thing’ is dead, and we need to stop beating the horse. I am done with this and I hope perhaps we can try to follow this one excellent rule of life. Agree to disagree. Please, let it be done, over, finished. Nothing but pain and anger can come from discussing this any longer. It has gone on too long. Let’s not turn this place Gina made into a place where women fight and attack each other. No, I am not saying there is any attacking; everyone is civil enough, for now. Just let it go.

Reading the full text of Nicky's message (which she posted above) was like a punch in the gut for me, because she could be my mother, and that could be a letter or e-mail in my inbox at any point. My mom is a "cradle-to-grave Catholic" turned evangelical Christian, which is a particularly scary combo due to the propensity toward dogma that comes with a lifetime of being Catholic, coupled with the fervor that comes from having "seen the light" after a lifetime of "being in the dark". So far she's mostly left me alone, especially since I got married and had a baby and made it clear that I would be making my own life choices from now on, but I fear the day she decides she needs to let me know how I'm screwing up my life/eternal future (and that of my son). The religious-themed gift cards (complete with choice Bible verses) and gifts for my son are kind of annoying, but it's this kind of BS - the hand-wringing concern for my soul that turns into a hellfire diatribe - that makes a real pain out of having a religious nut for a friend/family member.

If you KNOW that something horrible is going to befall someone, it's not rude at all to tell them about it. The reason this type of situation is rude is precisely because they DON'T know. That's why it's called faith -- they are choosing to believe it in the absence of evidence. That's a lot like an opinion, and unsolicited opinions are rude and stupid, and violently hateful unsolicited opinions are the mark of a sociopath. I would put the "You're going to hell!" people in the same category as the "your hair is ugly" people, except they have historically been a hell of a lot more dangerous. These people scare the crap out of me.

I'm a Christian and these types of "Christians" seriously bug me. The threat of hell is no reason to be a Christian. That's not believing, that's an insurance policy. No one was ever converted to Christianity because someone called them names and threatened them with an eternity of fiery damnation. Here is how I try to bring people to Christ:

My faith in Christ gives me great joy and comfort. For that reason, I wish that you would believe in Him too, because then you could know that same joy. But, hey, if you don't believe, that's no reason for us not to be friends. I feel compelled to tell you about the happiness Christ brings me the same way I feel compelled to tell my friends when our favorite shoe store is having a sale. Spread the good news!!!

I'm rarely a "me, too" kind of poster, but wow. THIS.

fact of the matter is (at least to my thinking) God isnt going to let people burn for all "eternity". from my understanding, this "eternity" is more of a "until it is all consumed" not "forever and ever and ever while theres a huge party in heaven".
because you are right, what kind of loving God would let people burn forever? not this God. no way. only until the lost are burnt up, just the same way a stick burns until its gone.

that being said, ive been there in that woman's place. and its a horrid place to be (because after you realize how wrong it was to say it that way - i should say, usually). its usually born out of concern, but its gone about it wrong. and seemingly without reason. so i wouldnt be too hard on her; shes learning too. i learned, and im a bit more tactful about sharing. its a process not an overnight change. and its a hard thing. you want to spill your heart out to everyone you know who doesnt get it like you do, but that only drowns and pushes away people who arent ready for it. i know from experience. and im horribly sorry. but theres nothing i can do about it anymore.... except tell you now that ive been there, and its likely not intended the way you take it.... though i cant guarantee it.

anyway.
the best thing about God, is that to my knowledge, He understands where we all are. He understands why we are the way we are. you dont have to believe in Him, and that is still true. you wont agree because you dont believe in Him, but you dont have to. this is the way i feel is all.

anyway. interesting post. i hope you cut this friend some slack, ask her what her concerns are, why she sent you that message.... maybe she can clarify, or apologize?

I grew up being told repeatedly that I'm going to Hell. I grew up LDS in a small town in Texas which is predominantly Southern Baptist (and I didn't ever have the guts to admit that I played D&D, too! :P). Because my beliefs aren't the same as theirs, I'm going to burn in Hell, even though I accept Christ as my Savior and have been baptized. I guess that has made me a lot more accepting of people who believe differently than I do.

I also served a mission. I did my best to express the love I felt towards Jesus Christ to anyone who wanted to listen. However, if they didn't want to listen, I moved on. I served the mission while I was in my early twenties and grew up a lot in that time, heh. In my personal life, my friends know what I am. If they have questions, they know they can ask them of me. If they don't want to know, that's their choice, too. I don't think they're going to Hell, though, and it's not my place to say.

I'm far from perfect myself, but I try to live a kind, loving life.

My question to ALL Christians responding to this question stating they would never ever send a message like this to someone they care about; what about this approach is NOT Biblical? When you care about someone and you believe the Gospel to be the truth why wouldn't you share it with that person that you care about? Would you stand on the curb and let someone run out into the road in heavy traffic and be killed by a car? Or would you immediately attempt to reach out to that person and draw them back? Just because they don't believe they would get hit by a car does that not mean it can't happen? How would avoiding telling them they could die from getting hit by the car because it might offend them that you told them they are going to die, how would that help save them?

I am truly concerned about the condition of peoples hearts that do not want to do anything to help people know the truth. Why as Christians is it acceptable for us to take missions to other countries to share the Gospel but we cannot share it with our family and friends?

I love and care about all of my family and friends very dearly. It grieves my heart on a daily basis to think that any one of them may not be spending eternity in Heaven. We are all going to die someday and not a single one of us knows when our number is up. It could be tonight. I would say that is an urgent matter.

Nicky

Nicky- aka the friend who originally sent the message...just for clarity.

Given the tract that your email is based on, I think we differ because I don't see the Bible as the inerrant word of God that's literally true and outside cultural context. Those things seem to determine what we count as "Biblical" to begin with. I think it has a lot of wisdom. I think it offers valuable guidance and insight for our lives. I do think it's filled with metaphor, allegory, and contradictions that make it impossible for it to be literal. And I think it's impossible for anything to be outside cultural context.

Honestly, I think we would disagree on just about every major theological issue. I agree that if you believe in an eternity where a just and loving God sends people to burn for eternity because of a temporal decision, then others' salvation is indeed concerning. I just disagree with your premise that a just and loving God would base eternity on temporality. I disagree that "taking the Gospel" to other countries by talking to people or helping them become more like America is a useful practice. And if I thought that anything I said, or did, or didn't say, or didn't do, could in any way impact a person going to hell, I would not be able to sleep.

To address the question "how is this not Biblical?" When I read the bible, I see two sorts of people yelling "YOU'RE GOING TO HELL, I JUST WANT TO STOP YOU!" One sort of people are concerned with others' behavior, following the rules, fitting into a prescribed set of values and norms, and who are resoundingly condemned for picking at specks (or splinters, etc) in others' eyes while ignoring the logs (or beams, etc) in their own. The other person I can think of who speaks directly to people about the condition of their eternal souls is Jesus, likely because he had some way of actually knowing what was going on. Rarely were those conversations with the people perceived as sinners by the public, but rather with those who were out there condemning others and saying they're going to hell.

I don't want to be the first sort of person. They're ineffective at best, and turn people away from religion, other people, and the very notion of God at worst. And I'm certainly not God, so there goes that option. Instead, I'm left holding a text that tells me about amazing, committed, and called people whose visions of holiness changed their lives, the lives of people around them, and their worlds, and I hope to emulate that.

Hi Krista,

"Given the tract that your email is based on, I think we differ because I don’t see the Bible as the inerrant word of God..."

If you don't believe the Bible to be the inerrant Word of God, then yes, our beliefs will be completely different. If you don't believe something the Bible says it is (the Word of God)...than I'm not sure how you could believe or count on anything in the Bible?

"To address the question “how is this not Biblical?” When I read the bible, I see two sorts of people yelling “YOU’RE GOING TO HELL, I JUST WANT TO STOP YOU!” One sort of people are concerned with others’ behavior, following the rules, fitting into a prescribed set of values and norms, and who are resoundingly condemned for picking at specks (or splinters, etc) in others’ eyes while ignoring the logs (or beams, etc) in their own. "

Yeah I think we're definitely not on the same page. I am not picking on people so to speak. We are all human and we all make mistakes and we all sin. Every single one of us. That is why we so desperately need the love of Jesus' sacrifice. Everyone, myself included. And daily we need to repent and continue to turn away from our sins. If someone were to lovingly come to me because they were concerned about something I was doing or not doing I would first thank them and then I would search the Word for what God wanted me to do about the issue.

But I'm not sure that you and I could even really debate any of this since you don't believe the Bible to be Truth. If you don't mind my asking, why don't you believe the Bible to be the inerrant Word of God? Where do you get your set of beliefs from if not the Bible?

I also don't think that sharing the Truth of the Gospel is "yelling" at someone...or putting them down for that matter. I think it is an act of love and compassion to share the Truth. But leaving parts out of it doesn't make it the Truth any more. And I think we are doing people a disservice by not sharing the Gospel in it's entirety. It is lying to them to not share the Truth. No matter how frightening the message may be I would never want one of my friends to withhold something like that from me.

"I just disagree with your premise that a just and loving God would base eternity on temporality."

I guess I really don't know what to say to this because I don't know where you get information about God from if not the Bible? God is both just and loving. That is why he gave us His Word in the form of the Bible to share so that we might know what will happen. How is he not just and loving when he tells you ahead of time what the consequences are? He loves us and gives us free will to make the choice to believe...but He tells us what the consequences of our choices are.

Thank you for taking the time to respond and for not being rude about it. I do appreciate it. :)

Hey Nicky!

I'm pretty sure the communication problems happened because the whole message was kind of one-sided. Most of my favorite conversations with friends -of any religion- happen when we give and take, and can find commonalities to base our experience on.

To non-stop quote scripture, without pausing for the other person to ask questions...that's probably why she felt so offended. Instead of being able to read that all people are sinners no matter how good they try to be, she probably just saw MURDERER and RAPIST over and over.

Maybe the next time you email someone, send the note of encouragement and love, and THEN end with, "by the way, I'm going to email you a big email about what I believe, because I'd really like to share it with you. Let me know if you have any questions about it."

That way you can still share, but it won't surprise people so much.

Hope this was helpful!

Oh man, that shit makes me want to blow a gasket. I grew up very VERY deeply religious, and am now agnostic/pagan/heathen/whathaveyou. I'm back visiting my folks a few weeks and feeling very strongly, insanely strongly, that I will never go back to being a Believer. I started having my doubts when I began dating my first boyfriend (now husband, and happy agnostic/atheist even then) and seeing how my family and friends reacted, just because of his lack of belief. Even when I said that he did believe in god (true) and so forth, he's just not religious, they would have none of it.

They wanted me to dump him UNTIL HE GOT SOME JESUS. I shit you not. Even at 17 this sounded ridiculous and obviously counter-intuitive. And I thought they wanted ALL people to find faith? Here they were telling me to not only drive him away from me, but away from god with my actions. Wtf?

I have no issues with them believing what they will, but I never, in my deepest i love jesus days, did I ever "witness" to anyone or try to convince them of anything. Keep your beliefs to yourself, k!

Hi Gina,
I've been reading here for a while, though never commented. But this post is compeling me to come out of lurkdom.
I've skimmed through most of the comments here, and know that what I have to say isn't new, but I want to answer your questions at the end of your post anyways. I am a Christian, though I don't consider myself to be religious. Would I ever try to convert anyone like this? NO, absolutely not. Do I hide what I believe? No, but there is definatly a way to share your beliefs without throwing in "and by the way, if you don't believe this too, right now, you will burn in hell." What do I make of your friend's message? I don't think it was the right approach (at all!), and wish that she wouldn't have presented it in that manner. I think she meant it with love (although again, this wasn't the best route to take), and I would hope that you wouldn't let this one email be your basis for how you view other Christians.
Reading through your post, one question came to my mind: why are you so certain that God doesn't exist? I'm really curious to know, although I would understand if you would prefer not to answer.

I am shocked and saddened every time I read something like this, but sadly, I'm no longer surprised. I'm training to be a pastor and I wouldn't dream of speaking like that to someone I loved, or someone I disliked, for that matter. I'm sorry that you have to wonder what's going to show up now in your inbox. That just stinks.

It seems like the stakes are different between lactivism, or any other sort of activism, and forcible conversion. Both can be passionate, but only attempts at religious conversion claim absolute knowledge of The TRUTH, other peoples' souls, and eternity. Either can be offensive, both can be "proved" right or wrong, but the level of offense and the ability to say "okay, we disagree, let's move on and remain friends" seems wildly different when someone is telling me that I'm destined to burn for eternity.

Well (and again, I'm discussing in hopes to be respectful, with further apologies if I came off harsh before) I really think it depends who you are talking to. I can easily accept someone of another faith believing (and preaching) that they think I am wrong and destined for hell. My own mother-in-law is one of these and I get along with her fine. OTOH I find it much more direct, painful, and offensive to be told anything I'm doing as a mother or to my child is harmful or wrong.

I probably shouldn't have gotten into the discussion and I apologize if I've been offensive. You can delete my comments if you want. I just don't think you have any real reason to even give any thought to what this person thinks or have to defend yourself in any way. Your particular area activism is something with a lot of surrounding emotion, which I feel should gird you against the idealism of choices you feel are not correct for your personal situation, whatever others may think.
Again, I probably spoke in haste and I apologize if I've angered anyone.

"of activism," sorry.

As you are well aware, anything having to do with children or mothering is fraught with emotion and guilt, no matter which route you take.

IMO an accusation that you personally (and out of sheer singular responsibility not directly affecting anyone else's welfare) are not a good person is probably initially irritating but if you're used to strong activism probably shouldn't be taken seriously if you believe you are correct in your choice.

Do you believe what she says? No? Then why do you care?

As lactivists love to say, nobody can make you feel bad for your choice. Do you feel okay about your choice to be an atheist? Is it the right choice for you and your family? Yes? Then great--you're fine.

I don't "care" - but that doesn't make it right. I never said I felt bad for my choice, or that she made me feel bad - and even so, I don't know a Lactivist who'd send somebody to hell for not breastfeeding. Some things just should NOT be said, and threatening someone with burning is one of those things.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, honestly. But do you think telling women they have been lied to, that there is close to zero chance that they could have naturally failed at breastfeeding, or that they basically fed their children poison and screwed them up irreparably (which is how it reads to a lot of women) by choosing to formula feed or have a medically intervened birth is less upsetting than being told you're going to a place you don't even believe in? Or that it's a successful way to bring people over to your "side"? (I put side in quotes, because womens' issues are very full of shades of gray and I don't know if most women truly have an actual side.)

Again, I'm not trying to be a jerk and I have a lot of interest in the subjects you discuss. I have a lot of skepticism in the effectiveness of them, however, having discussed this at length with many women who both completely reject what I'm saying and also agree with me. I just find it wildly ironic that being told by a religious person that you're going to a hell that you do not even believe in warrants a post defending yourself. Why? Hit delete. You're secure in your decisions. It's not about making you feel bad, right?

You just said "that's how it reads, anyway" - in which you are admitting that I have never actually SAID those things, unlike the person who actually typed the words "you will spend eternity in hell" into her computer for me to read. I cannot help that someone can interpret something as you've described. For the record, hundreds of people on that same exact post did NOT interpret my words that way because that is NOT what I wrote. I can only comment on what I write, not on what people imagine that I write.

There's also such a thing as closing the blog window and walking away - I'm not sending my words into someone's inbox. It's really, really simple - if you can't read what I write, then don't visit my blog. But I can't avoid my own Facebook inbox, and never had a reason to before now.

Wow. I'm pretty sure I've never been called so many names in my entire life.

I have strong beliefs. They do come from the Bible. Jesus' mission on this earth was to share the Gospel with as many people as possible in a loving way. The Gospel is that Jesus died for our sins so that we don't have to spend eternity in Hell. That is what he preached. This really saddens me that you felt like you couldn't send me a message back asking questions, telling me what you thought.

Anyhow...here is the message I sent to Gina...the one that sparked this blog post:

Hi Gina!

First I want to start off by saying that I really admire the passion you have for the causes you believe in. I'm sure we will never know the tally of just how many women you have helped through your blog, your radio show, and the numerous other things you do. I am certainly not a writer, nor am I brave in any stretch of the word. This is probably going to sound like it's WAY out of left field but I hope you'll at least read what I have to write tonight.

If you found yourself in a hospital room with a birthing mother who was about to be sent for a c-section, but you KNEW that there was another way, you would do everything in your power to intervene in the situation. I find myself in a similar predicament this evening. This might be hard to follow so I will try my best to make it coherent. There is one thing that I am very passionate about. And when someone I care about is in harms way based on the knowledge I have, I can't just do nothing. I care very much about you (probably sounds strange but you were my biggest cheerleader when I was trying to re-lactate and I always felt like you made me stronger because you believed I could do it) so I cannot remain quiet. At the risk of losing you as a "virtual" friend, it is because I care that I want to share with you what I am passionate about.

I know you have stated before that you are an atheist and I'm not sure why you hold that position; if it is because you had a bad experience with "religion" in the past, or if you truly believe that everything in this earth came from nothing and there cannot possibly be a creator. Whatever the reason is, it concerns my heart. If you can imagine for a moment with me that there is in fact a God, and a Heaven and Hell created by God I can imagine that if you had proof of their existence you would be concerned about where you will spend all of eternity. Eternity in Hell does not sound like the way to go...eternity is a very long time and we need to be really sure we know that we are right when it comes to an afterlife.

I wanted to share with you what the Bible says about this. Again, I care about you and hope you take this in consideration!! If you have any questions at all please let me know. Again, I understand you don't believe in God, Heaven, and Hell but if you could please just take a moment and imagine that they do.

Do you consider yourself to be a good person? Almost everyone thinks they are good. But the question you should be asking is, "Am I good enough to go to Heaven?" HOW WOULD YOU KNOW? The way to find out is to ask yourself if you have obeyed the Ten Commandments. Let's look at a few and see how you do...

1. You shall not lie. Have you ever told a lie? What do we call people who tell lies? We call them a liar. How many murders do you have to commit to be a murderer? Just one. If you have told even one lie, then God sees you as a liar. The Bible warns that all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8). You may not think deceitfulness is a serious sin, but God does. Check your answer:
[ ] GUILTY – Yes, I have broken this commandment at least once.
[ ] INNOCENT – No, I have NEVER broken this commandment in my life.
2. You shall not steal. Have you ever stolen anything (even if it was something small)? The value of the thing stolen doesn't matter; petty theft is still theft. Have you ever taken anything that belonged to someone else (from the office, school, parents, downloaded music you didn't pay for, etc.)? If you have, that makes you a thief. Check your answer:
[ ] GUILTY – Yes, I have broken this commandment at least once.
[ ] INNOCENT – No, I have NEVER broken this commandment in my life.
3. You shall not murder. Jesus warned "Whoever is angry with his brother without cause, is in danger of judgment," (Matthew 5:22) and the Bible says, "He who hates his brother is a murderer," (1 John 3:15). God sees hatred in the heart to be as wicked as murder. Have you ever hated anyone? Check your answer:
[ ] GUILTY – Yes, I have broken this commandment at least once.
[ ] INNOCENT – No, I have NEVER broken this commandment in my life.
4. You shall not commit adultery. Jesus warned, "You have heard…'You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart," (Matthew 5:28). Have you ever looked at another person with lust? The Bible says that adulterers and fornicators (those who have had sex before marriage) will not enter the kingdom of heaven (1 Corinthians 6:9). Have you ever looked at someone with lust? Check your answer:
[ ] GUILTY – Yes, I have broken this commandment at least once.
[ ] INNOCENT – No, I have NEVER broken this commandment in my life.
If you were honest, you just admitted that you are a liar, a thief, a murderer and an adulterer – and we've only looked at 4 of the Ten Commandments. There are six more! If God were to judge you by His standard of the Ten Commandments, would you deserve to go to Heaven or to Hell? Does the fact that you have sinned against God concern you? It should. You have actually angered Him by your sin, just as we all have angered Him. The Bible says His wrath abides on you (John 3:36), and that you are an "enemy of God in your mind through wicked works," (Colossians 1:21).
Who of us can say we are not guilty of breaking these Commandments? This is what the Bible means when it says, "All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God," (Romans 3:23). Can you see your predicament? You are guilty of sinning against God Himself, and, because you have a conscience, (con-with, science-knowledge) you have sinned "with knowledge." Isn't it true that every time you lied, stole, or lusted, etc., you knew it was wrong?

Perhaps you think God is good and because of his goodness He will overlook your sins? But if you knew of a human judge who turned a blind eye to the crimes of a guilty rapist... would you describe him as a "good" judge? No. That would be a corrupt judge. God could never be a corrupt judge. He will punish all the rapists, murderers, and thieves... But he won't stop there. He will also punish all liars, the lustful, adulterers, idolaters, and blasphemers, (Revelation 21:8). The place of eternal punishment is Hell. But because God is rich in mercy and compassion, he has provided a way for you to be forgiven. He has invited you to come to Him for a full pardon and receive the free gift of Eternal Life. You cannot earn it, and you do not deserve it, but God is offering it to you as proof of His love for you.
Imagine you are standing in front of a judge, guilty of multiple serious crimes. All the evidence has been presented and there is no doubt about your guilt. Your apologies and good works cannot erase your crimes; therefore you must be punished. The fine for your crime is $250,000 or imprisonment, but you don't have two pennies to rub together. The judge is about to pass sentence when someone you don't even know steps in and pays your fine for you! The court accepts the money and declares that you are free to go. The law has been satisfied, your debt has been paid in full, and the stranger's sacrifice was a demonstration of his love for you. That's what God did for you 2000 years ago. The Bible says that the God of the Universe became a man (Jesus Christ), and suffered and died on the cross for your sins and mine so that we could be set free. It's as simple as this—we broke the Law, and Jesus paid our fine. "God demonstrated His own love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8) "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, being made a curse for us." (Galatians 3:13) Do you see God's great love for you? Do you see your need for His forgiveness? Then do what He commands and "Repent…that your sins may be wiped out and times of refreshing may come from the Lord." (Acts 3:19) You must turn away from sin and turn to God. Desire to have NOTHING to do with sin, and surrender your life to the One who can save you. Jesus died to set you free, and then he rose from death to be your Lord. Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me." If you will confess and forsake your sins (repent) and trust in Jesus Christ as your Savior and Lord, God will forgive you and you'll pass from death to life. If you are not sure how to pray, read Psalm 51 and make it your prayer. What does it mean to "put your faith in Jesus Christ?" It means to personally trust in Jesus the same way you'd trust in a parachute if you had to jump 25,000 feet out of an airplane. You wouldn't just "believe" in the parachute; you would put it on! In the same way, the Bible says, "Put on the Lord Jesus Christ..." and you will be saved. There are millions of people who "believe" Jesus exists... but they have not put on the Savior—there's a BIG difference. And the difference will be obvious when you "jump" through the door of death.
Today, with all your heart—turn away from sin, and surrender your life to Jesus Christ. Please don't put it off till later. You may die today and then it will be too late. Please repent and trust Christ today. God will transform you from the inside out. You will think and feel differently as you learn to trust and obey Him. God will give you new strength to live right and love Him above all else. Read your Bible daily and obey His Word. You can trust God— He loves you and will always be faithful. If you've decided to reject the gift of forgiveness and you die in your sins, there is no hope for you. There is no purgatory. The wrath of God abides on you and you will spend eternity in Hell. Please take the time to consider your sins and that God is willing to forgive you if you repent of your sins and put your faith in Christ and follow Christ as Lord.

The full version of the message kind of makes the whole thing even more repugnant, not less.

Um, seriously? I think reading the whole comment made me even more horrified. I am a Christian and I would never EVER write/say anything like that. I'm sorry, but is that really supposed to convert anyone? I wonder if it's actually EVER been successful. :/

Having said that, Gina, I think you're doing a wonderful job, and to me, it doesn't matter WHAT you believe. Your mission is to protect women and their babies... what that has to do with religious beliefs is beyond me.

Nicky,

I'm glad you posted the email; it gives everyone some perspective. I would like to talk with you about what you wrote. Promise I won't bite. You can email me at kim@taggedzi.com.

Kim

Hi Nicky,
I'm a Christian too, and I can appreciate the intent behind your message, however, maybe this situation shows that your approach isn't the best to take in sharing the truth.
Just a thought.
Laura