Sad, but not surprising. Seems to me that women are always quick to judge each other with a ferocity and venom that should be saved for heinous criminals, not dished out on mothers who “choose” their condition. The whole child-free hate is what really turned me off from the “feminist” movement…before I met you.
Jill @BabyRabies´s last blog ..Helping Baggino Help Haiti

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AHH! yes did u write this because of my status that one day!? great blog!
Michelle´s last blog ..Baby W – 9 Weeks

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It’s sad to say that this does not surprise me at all. It really sickens me, the amount of woman-to-woman abuse there is out there. I experienced similar reactions when riding the Brown line North. But if I happened to take the Lawrence Bus, plenty of people would offer their seat, most of the time I would turn them down but it’s still nice to be asked. (And I was due in July so I was super preggo in the heat of summer and riding public transport.)
I guess if you’ve never been pregnant, you don’t realize the amount of discomfort and nine months is a long time to feel that way. I hate to say but I am sure that for some women, there are bad feelings when they see a pregnant woman, maybe they are having difficulties of their own but that is no excuse for rude behavior. As far as Adrienne goes… there is a big difference between a preggo belly and a pudgy belly. Kudos to Metra for having some manners and I agree… karma is a bitch.

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@Jill – these hateful bitches are ruining the good name of feminism. I promise, it SHOULDN’T be like this (and if you know people like this, they shouldn’t be calling themselves feminists)

@Michelle – yep! As soon as you said that I told John to grab me a copy on his way home, and as soon as he saw it he said he knew I’d get a whole post out of it.

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SHEESH. There was a similar kerfuffle in the New York Times very recently, I think it was over the summer. And when I say similar, I mean almost identical. Woman wrote in observing how surprised she was that she was so rarely offered a seat on the subway – and tons of people wrote in saying the same thing the letters you cite said, both men and women, though coming from other women, as you point out it definitely has a particular burn.

Fortunately, a lot of others chimed in shaming these selfish louts, and one made a statement that deserves shouting from the rooftops: “Well, I hope no one treated YOUR MOTHER so thoughtlessly when she was pregnant with YOU.”

I’ll see if I can find the article for you. I started reading through the comments and eventually cried uncle, as I think the final tally was somewhere upwards of 500.
Dou-la-la´s last blog ..Weekend Movie: A Walk to Beautiful

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Well hey, that was quick find. Here it is: http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/28/complaint-box-subway-squatters/

Gina, I apologize if this paralyzes you with rage. It sure did me.
Dou-la-la´s last blog ..Weekend Movie: A Walk to Beautiful

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When I was (I think obviously) pregnant and having early contractions we were at Disney and not only did no one offer up a seat on the monorail, I almost got shoved away from the door and separated from my kids. I don’t think pregnancy equals special rights, (or special restrictions) but how about common courtesy for someone who is obviously miserable?

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I also can’t help but wonder, would Liz and Adrienne give up their seat to the elderly or is being old not considered a disability either. I guess no one has the choice not to get old… or do we? Hmmm…

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While I don’t think that a few women’s actions are indicative of a failing of the whole of womankind, I do think that women who have not been pregnant are less compassionate on this issue, overall, than those who have, or even men. I’m sure that some of it is just because they are immature or inexperienced or merely assholes, but I think at least some of it can be chalked up to a range of politically charged issues that serve to divid women, with pregnancy and how we navigate in public spaces being prime contentious ones. When you put the two together — BAM! — you’re going to get some ugly opinions.

My theory is that some women feel very resentful of females they consider to be ‘weak’ or ‘feminine’ or ‘needy’ because they’ve fought so hard NOT to be looked at and treated that way, as have their mothers. Pregnancy reminds them that women DO have biological differences from men and that sometimes those differences put us at a physical and social disadvantage. That, mixed with a dash of jealousy/curiosity and a healthy pinch of ignorance, is enough to make some women hostile and aggressive. These are usually the same people who hate children and think they should shut up and get out of their space already. It’s a defense mechanism, through and through. Sad, really, but I can’t blame them entirely for feeling conflicted and a bit angry about the way women’s lives change when they become pregnant and become mothers. It doesn’t excuse rude behaviour, of course, but it does help to explain the cause of it, I think.

Thanks for what is sure to be a lively debate!
FertileFem´s last blog ..I had a vision of love

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@Jen – while a respectful opinion is welcome here, calling me names won’t be tolerated. I didn’t call Liz or Adrienne names, and I also did not call them “lazy.” It’s important to read what I actually write instead of getting mad that I called out really disgusting behavior from two women who wrote into a newsletter to have their hatred spread all over the city of Chicago. The Metra also said in this same newsletter “Good manners can’t be legislated, but bad manners can be publicized.” That’s what this is about.

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The comments of those women disgust me.
They honestly sound like the horrid childless or “childfree” women who call pregnant women or women with children moo’s or other derogatory names.
Hope they never end up in this woman’s situation because all they would get from me is a fucking drop kick to the face.
Danielle´s last blog ..Bucket List

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And why aren’t more women running the world? Oh yeah, because they’re wasting time being total morons.

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Good lord those were just unnecessarily rude! Why are women so cruel to each other sometimes? We’ve got enough cruelty coming at us from all directions, we should have each other’s backs not add to the negative energy. yeesh!
Emily – Anthro Doula´s last blog ..Frustrated

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This is one of my pet peeves. And I END IT when I see it.

I have told teenagers to move, I have told men to move, I have thrown stink eyes. Just the other day at church a mother came in holding her baby and trying to keep two small children in tow. She was standing in the foyer with no place to sit until it was time to enter the chapel. There was a teenage boy sitting in a chair. I walked over to him and said, “There is a mother with a baby behind you. You need to move.” And he did.

Because DAMMIT, you should move.

Preggos, elderly, parents with babies, those are the priority class, and you should move your ass. I certainly have. It’s my delight to give men a stink eye and offer a preggo a seat. I do it all the time. They usually look ashamed. A few even get off their butts and offer me their seat, properly chastened.

I mean HONESTLY. GET OVER yourselves!
Azucar´s last blog ..Coats!

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As someone who is pregnant for the first time, I’ve found the social response to my condition to be very diverse, with most people being very sweet about my condition and full of interested questions. But I’ve also had experiences like Kate’s, though I suspect most people are oblivious rather than as deliberately rude as those respondents were.

Incidentally, the one response you quoted from “Liz” I have run into before. (I actually wrote about it here.) As a woman myself who’s struggled with infertility for many years, I obviously have a lot of sympathy for that reality. But the meanness of Liz’s words, I don’t have much patience for at all. Trying to make another woman feel badly in order to make herself feel superior is a truly unkind way to live. It’s far too commonplace… both with women and men, I think.
mmc´s last blog ..Keeping Control of the Money Pit

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Can we please not hate on all childfree women? Not all of us hate pregnant women or those with children. I’m sure none of you intended to come off as speaking badly about a whole group of people, but we must always be careful.

On that note, those women were way out of line. Adrienne says that women who are obviously pregnant aren’t more entitled to seats- I say, yes they are! How many women choose to be induced for no reason other than they’re tired of being pregnant? For the sake of the woman and her child-to-be, people who are without problems should offer their seats to pregnant women.

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@KushielsMoon – I don’t think anybody’s trying to rag on all child-free women (at least I know hope not.) It’s just an unfortunate coincidence that most child haters and mother haters are child-free feminists. It really drags down the movement. You are one of the few truly mother-friendly child-free feminists I have ever come across, and that makes you a gem.

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@FertileFem – I was thinking about what you said, and I can see there’s a lot of truth in that. However, this can be said of just about any bigoted, hateful group. So many Americans think that the Blacks, or Mexicans, or Jewish, or the Poor, are the cause of all our society’s problems. So, they lash out at them. You often have nutbag right-wingers pointing at Gays and blaming them for the divorce rate, just like you often have hateful “feminists” pointing at breeders and blaming them for how far we have NOT come. It’s fairly transparent, defies gender/race/culture/religion, and inexcusable either way. It’s not that I expect better from women, it’s that the feminist fight is being made all the worse by these selfish attitudes. It’s hard to have a revolution when your army keeps shooting at each other.

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I follow your blog but don’t ever comment. I’m in my second pregnancy while working in Washington DC and I ride the Metro each day. I’ve had a few people ask if I wanted their seats, but most don’t. It isn’t blatant, although once it was… the guy (a young, cool guy) was taking up the whole seat which should seat two people, and was NOT going to move over to let me sit down… even though I was standing right next to the seat. With my last pregnancy, I had a few people offer me their seats, all older women, whom I felt bad displacing so I often politely refused. I have a coworker who was starting to get into a taxi while pregnant (in DC), got pushed out of the way by a middle-aged man who yelled, “You wanted women’s lib, you got it!” as he took her taxi…

Anyway, also wanted to mention that I’m a VBAC hopeful this time… I think I saw you when you posted on iVillage with your last EC, when I would lurk in all the ECs before my second pregnancy. I found your blog while researching VBACs and recognized your iVillage username.

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” It’s hard to have a revolution when your army keeps shooting at each other.”
My sentiments exactly.

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When I was pregnant I didn’t expect special treatment or for anyone to give me a seat or whatever. That said, I had very easy pregnancies and felt wonderful throughout. When I ride the bus and see an obviously tired Mama with a newborn and toddler and a big stroller and all that, you bet I jump up and help her if I can. After all, I want to raise children who have compassion.

When I was pregnant, I would say the vast majority of my experiences in the public were positive. I’m sure there were those who hated on me just by being pregnant and taking up “space” – like people often hate on the disabled, the elderly, the obese on scooters – anyone who for some reason doesn’t qualify as a human being who deserves compassion.

Does it really matter if someone “put themselves in that position” by getting pregnant or whatever? Those who don’t give compassion are pretending that there will never come a day when they themselves need help or appreciate help. And those days do come.

I have compassion for those who aren’t as able-bodied or privileged as I am… Nothing will talk me out of that compassion, not even the acerbic sting of mama- and child-haters. (By the way, are those ladies going to get my husband’s name and job and go to his place of work and lay into him for having the AUDACITY to breed children and expect other people to ever, ever help those children out in any way?)
Kelly´s last blog ..it’s boring, but only because of THE PATRIARCHY, and how we’ve decided certain issues are “women’s issues” and don’t matter

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I never rode on public transit while I was pregnant, and I am now feeling rather thankful for that.

As for the negative comments, they make me sad. I would hope that we would accommodate each other as best we can, based on our particular situations. How we got into that situation, or whether other people are in that situation, has little bearing on the need to be considerate of each other. A little bit of kindness never hurts, you know?
Amber´s last blog ..Imperfection

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There isn’t any kind of public transit in my town, but I did encounter a few random bouts of rudeness while pregnant. While out at a restaurant I was asked if I “should really be eating THAT,” in reference to the tilapia fillet that I was treating myself to. Mostly just stuff like that.

The thing that bothers me is that social etiquette completely changes (disappears) when you’re pregnant. The person who asked me about my fish and whether or not I should be eating it would NEVER have approached the overweight man sitting a table behind me about the cheese fries and chicken fried steak COVERED in gravy.

Anyway – it’s a little off topic, and for that I apologize. People just don’t know how to conduct themselves around pregnant women. Period.
Erin W. / Beatnik Momma´s last blog ..The Original Blue Face

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Gina,
I’m glad you wrote about this, coming from the Chicago ‘burbs and having rode the Metra for most of my life. It surprises me, frankly, that those trains would have gotten that full!

Anyhow, I have to honestly say I’m torn about this. I was raised to believe strongly that “Pregnancy is not a medical condition.” But yes, sometimes it IS a medical condition, and just as Kate couldn’t speculate whether some of the passengers had a disability, neither could they know whether her big belly was paired with sciatic problems or preeclampsia. Really, I always felt about my pregnancies that if i couldn’t hike a few miles a week or stand a lot, then I would hardly be able to know what my body was able to do when it was most needed. But those were MY pregnancies, and no two women are the same.

No, she shouldn’t have been treated as a “Princess” (what a bitchy statement!), but neither should she have been treated with anything less than common decency. Not only because she’s bringing life into the world, but because she’s a human. A little kindness never hurt anyone, right folks?

In other news, I live in a small city in Virginia. And Every. Single. Time. I walk with my two sons (wearing my 22-month-old, holding the 4.5-year-old’s hand), I am offered a ride. No, I don’t take it, but it’s the thought that counts. Maybe it’s just Southern hospitality to my Yankee ass. But I think it’s a lesson in kindness that can and should be shared.

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This really burns me up! This attitude of selfishness and inconsiderateness that people have. Should a pregnant women be offered a seat by an able-bodied person? ABSO-FREAKING-LUTELY! Not because pregnancy is a disability (it is not in and of itself), and not just because it is a condition of the body which can be hard on a person, but because we able-bodied people should always offer our seats to someone who looks in discomfort.

I do not have any problem with being a feminist and being a person who gives and expects common courtesy. I do not see those things as conflicting. That guy that shoved a pregnant women out of the way and took the taxi, basically saying it was okay for him to do because of women’s lib? Absolutely rude no matter who you do that to. It doesn’t help me to know that he would have done the same to a man, because that wasn’t about equality–it was about being selfish and rude.

We should all be equally considerate of each other and the differing needs that people have. And pregnant women do need to sit down.
caramama´s last blog ..Not Said Quite Right (Shorts)

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Noone in Toronto ever got up to give me a seat on the Subway, even towards the end. I definitely will next time I see a pregnant lady, I knew how it felt.
People are just horrible. That is all it comes down to.

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This type of story makes me feel physically ill. Even before I got pregnant, I’d give up my metro seat or bus seat to a pregnant woman. Why? Because it’s the nice thing to do! I regularly ride both the bus and the metro here in DC, and unfortunately see this sort of behavior all the time. I agree that many times people just don’t notice (been guilty of that myself), but based on the nasty letters in response, clearly some people need a trip back to manners school. UGH.
Lisa´s last blog ..Working and Pumping

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I’m in Toronto and I always give up my seat for people who need it. (Sorry Sarah, you must not have been on a train I was.) Sometimes I’ve had to shout at a pregnant woman who is by the subway doors from my mid section seat and then keep my bag on the seat until she makes her way to me because I’ve actually had people try to take the seat before the pregnant woman gets there! RUDE!
Oddly though I’d say about only 1 out of every 5 women I do offer my seat to takes it.
I have actually seen women ask people if they minded giving up their seats. This seems to work very well because who wants to be the jerkface that says “No” to a pregnant woman?
I just found out I’m pregnant and I ride public transit every day, so it will be interesting to see how many times someone gives up their seat to me when I’m showing.

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While those responses were disgusting they weren’t surprising. Living in SLC, UT myself I regularly took the train to work- where I stood on my feet all day. Nevermind that it’s a mile to the station, almost a mile to my old store and then the feet all day thing, no one ever wanted to give up their seat on the train- the day ONE person did? Another woman tried to get to it first, and I slid in completely (it’s made for two), but she glared at me in disgust, turned on her heels and went the other way, presumably standing throughout the ride. Maybe she was pregnant, too, but like I said- lots of room.

I would have never expected an elderly person to give me their seat (I gave mine up throughout pregnancy if someone else needed it). I never ‘expected’ any ‘special treatment’- but sometimes you know, it just shocks the hell out of you how now one wants to do anything kind for a stranger with their day. And is making sure a person’s needs are met giving them ‘special treatment’? Do they NEED to go and designate ‘pregnancy seats’ on public transits so that this stops being an issue? And boy doesn’t that first respondant sound bitter? “boohoo to you because I can’t have kids- so your ass is STANDING’. Maybe there’s a damn good reason a person with an attitude like that can’t have any friggin’ children.
Echo S.´s last blog ..Favorite Moment of the Week so Far

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Also- while I don’t consider pregnancy a disability or disease, the fact of the matter is it IS a medical condition. The idea that, ‘You’re pregnant because of your actions’ is ridiculous- if someone is ‘disabled’ because they were parachuting do we tell them too bad so sad you have to stand? Their actions and choices led to it, just as pregnancy.
Echo S.´s last blog ..Favorite Moment of the Week so Far

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That is sad. I was on the bus a few times while pregnant with my 2nd. No one offered their seat to me. I also had my 2yr old with me at the time. I get so sick and tired of women being catty towards other women. Some people never leave the playground or highschool behind.
Darcel´s last blog ..Hollywood here I come!

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I rode the train a half hour each way while pregnant with my daughter. As a previous poster stated, older women were the only ones that ever offered me their seats. I too hated to take them. Towards the end of my pregnancy (with sever swelling, hypertension and nausea that being on a train DOES NOT make better) I had no problem asking someone for their seat.

I don’t know when it became okay not to use common courtesy. I hold doors, say thank you, and always offer my seat to someone who seems to need it more than me. Even if it just seems like they had a longer day. We’re polite to show that we have empathy and care about people.

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When I was pregnant and doing a 2 hour commute every day to work, men were the ONLY ones to ever offer me a seat. Once a woman did offer me a seat and then she looked at me suspiciously and said ‘you are pregnant, right?’, I acknowledged that I was pregnant, and I’m sure she felt much better that she’d given up her seat to a pregnant lady and not someone who was just fat.

Also, now that I get around with a toddler, it is always men who offer to help getting on/off the train, opening doors etc. Most men, anyway. Some of the younger ones look at me as though babies are contagious and if they get too close they might catch one.
Zoey @ Good Goog´s last blog ..Best Looking Mortgage Statement in the World

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How awful!

I was warned and warned and warned that my then-director was an “old-school” feminist who had felt that she had to choose between children and a career. When I got pregnant, I had no less than 3 coworkers talk to me about ignoring any comments she might make implying that she questioned my intent to return to work after maternity leave.

I am happy to report that not only did she not say anything snide, she allowed me to use her office in another building to pump when I wasn’t anywhere near my desk and my breasts were aching. Yes, the bathroom was equipped with electrical outlets.
Sadia´s last blog ..Melody Day and Jessica Day

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In London, UK they provide you (on request) with a ‘Baby on Board’ badge to wear on the Underground. It may not always help but it’s a step in the right direction. Looks quite cool too!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dmcl/2388694454/

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/gettingaround/transportaccessibility/1169.aspx

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